The Shocking Truth
Jerry Coyne spreads the gospel of evolution.
By Harold Henderson
July 27, 2007
EVOLUTION VIA NATURAL selection is the great unifying idea of biology, so explaining it to students is part of a day’s work for Jerry Coyne, who teaches in the University of Chicago’s department of ecology and evolution. Coyne also spends a good amount of time speaking to nonstudents—the Alaska Bar Association, North Shore businesspeople, and the Graham School of General Studies, to name a few—on the overwhelming evidence that life developed pretty much as Darwin says, not as the Bible says. Coyne’s colleagues in other disciplines don’t have to go around explaining that matter really is made up of atoms, or that the earth really is round and travels around the sun. But many Americans haven’t even heard the evidence for evolution. Coyne reports that his students at the U. of C. “have barely been exposed to Darwin.”
This kind of public education doesn’t pay well, doesn’t advance Coyne’s professional research into the mechanisms of speciation, doesn’t get him tenure (because he’s already got it), and exposes him to abuse from creationists, but he feels it needs to be done: according to research published in Science last August, only about 40 percent of Americans agree that “human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals,” a percentage similar to the ones found in Turkey and Latvia. By contrast, 70 to 80 percent of Icelanders and Swedes and French people get it. A June Gallup poll conducted in the U.S. (pollingreport.com/science.htm) reported a 53-44 proevolution split among its respondents, but those who believed it was “definitely true” trailed those who believed it was “definitely false” by 18 to 28 percent.
The U.S. is more religious than most developed countries, and Darwinian evolution can be seen as striking at two common religious beliefs: that human beings are literally created in God’s image, and that that’s why humans can understand good and evil and choose between them. Thus, the Darwinian idea that we simply evolved might seem to undermine the moral order. “I’ve had people ask me in tears, ‘How can I believe in evolution and still be a moral human being?’” says Coyne. He has plenty of answers, but says people don’t like to hear them. He himself believes people make their own meanings and morality, but he doesn’t play clergyman to the distraught. “I refer them to their priest or minister—I don’t want to take their religion away.” In his writings (in Nature, in the New Republic, and on edge.org, among other places), he calls attention to prominent evolutionists who are believers, such as Ken Miller of Brown University. Coyne knows that out in the real world, unlike academia, evidence will only get you so far.
Meanwhile, in what seems like an odd move, creationists have chosen to play on Coyne’s home court by claiming to be scientists themselves, and presenting “intelligent design” as an alternative scientific hypothesis to Darwinian evolution (though its advocates put forth no testable predictions). Last year in the case Kitzmiller v. Dover, Pennsylvania federal judge John E. Jones III ruled against that claim after a lengthy trial, but the efforts continue. Coyne’s latest New Republic article (June 18) takes on the new book by intelligent-design advocate Michael Behe, The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism. “IDers never produce their own ‘scientific’ explanation of life,” Coyne concludes. “They just carp about evolution. And as evolutionists explain one thing after another, IDers simply ignore these successes and move on to the ever-dwindling set of
unsolved problems in which they continue to see the hand of God.” IDer William Dembski’s response at his blog uncommondescent.com followed this pattern precisely, but also offered his readers specific evidence: that Coyne bears a passing resemblance to Herman Munster!
When Coyne tried to treat ID as a serious hypothesis in a 2005 New Republic article, he found himself posing hard questions to its advocates: What “intelligent designer” would have devised the nonfunctional and inflammation-prone human appendix? What intelligent designer would have given human embryos a temporary coat of fur in the seventh month of pregnancy, just like the ones our primate relatives get and keep? What intelligent designer would have created transitional organisms—between fish and amphibians, dinosaurs and birds, reptiles and mammals, land mammals and whales—that occur in the fossil record exactly when they would have appeared in the course of evolution driven by natural selection among random mutations? ID advocate Behe has a response to uestions like these: “Features that strike us as odd in a design might have been placed there by the designer for a reason—for artistic reasons, to show off, for some as-yet-undetectable practical purpose, or for some unguessable reason—or they might not.” But as Coyne points out, this amounts to declaring intellectual bankruptcy: if no imaginable evidence would contradict ID theory, it’s not a scientific theory at all. (By contrast, it’s easy to imagine evidence that would contradict Darwinism, such as fossil evidence that humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time.)
Complaining about “missing links” that are no longer missing won’t fool the knowledgeable, but Coyne sees another agenda here. “Creationism (and its gussied-up descendant ‘Intelligent Design’) is not just a campaign against evolution—it’s a campaign against science itself and the scientific method,” he writes at edge.org. “By pretending that evolution is on shaky ground, and asserting that religion can contribute to our understanding of nature, creationists confuse people about the very form and character of scientific evidence. This confusion can only hurt our ability to make rational judgments about important social issues, like global warming, that involve science.”
Would-be president Sam Brownback recently wrote in the New York Times that any scientific findings conflicting with his faith should be “firmly rejected.” In the same vein, Jonathan Wells—a senior fellow of the ID advocacy group Center for Science and Culture at the Discovery Institute—recently wrote, “The vast majority of Americans reject Darwinism for good reasons: it doesn’t fit the scientific evidence, and it contradicts a central tenet of Christianity.” (Wells leaves no doubt as to which reason matters more to him: at tparents.org, he writes that Reverend Moon persuaded him to “devote my life to destroying Darwinism, just as many of my fellow Unificationists had already devoted their lives to destroying Marxism.”)
Earlier in his career, Coyne worked with public defenders on DNA cases, and he likens his combat with creationists to serving as an expert witness and being cross-examined by a prosecutor. “I learned how to do science a long time ago, but it’s a completely different ball game to face the challenge of a prosecuting attorney or a creationist who’s out to destroy me and impugn my credibility. . . . It’s taught me how to write for the public and made me a better teacher.”
Coyne won’t criticize colleagues who don’t speak out in public. “You have to enjoy it in a way, and not just be pissed off—‘Oh, I have to do this again.’” But he does wish more would speak out, join the proevolution clearinghouse the National Center for Science Education (natcenscied.org), and make themselves available as resources in local controversies. When you’re playing defense, you have to be everywhere. “The creationists are now trying to work on the school board level, and there need to be scientists nearby to take them on.”  Send a letter to the editor.
From the Reader blogs Chicagoland Whet Moser: Coming up from the shipwreck, making as if to say.... Thursday at 6:53 pm
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RBH at 4:26 PM on 7/27/2007
Coyne's last remarks, about the failure of (many? most?) scientists to speak out in public about the failures of ID creationism, are on point. A good deal of the problem is traceable to the pressure of ignorant parents and religiously motivated special interest groups on local schools to minimize the teaching of evolution, that pressure can only be met by informed resistance from qualified people -- working scientists and scientifically aware lay people.
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William Cantrell at 6:26 PM on 7/27/2007
There is more to this issue than meets the eye. Of note, there are many atheistic humanist (like Kurt Vonnegut) that are anti evolutionist. The sentiment being that humans have "consciousness" and are hence wholly distinct from all other life forms. This view has been historically promulgated too in university biology departments by an enforced prohibition on finding close kinship between human behavior and that of higher animals as "anthropomorphism." Today, science journalism in publications such as Nature, Science,and Discover are so sophomoric and patronizing that they are really also part of the problem and are themselves undermining science education in the United States. The problem of subjectivist is prevalent and it will take efforts on all fronts to make progress in the cause of rationalism.
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h3nry at 9:31 PM on 7/28/2007
Apart from encouraging scientists to speak out more, I also think it is extremely important to highlight the failure of the educational system in the US.
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J King at 3:09 PM on 7/30/2007
The governor of Texas has appointed an ultra conservative creationist to the head of the Texas state school board. The fact that a devout creationist has been appointed to this position is not only a catastrophe for the educational system of Texas but also will more than likely have a huge negative impact on the rest of the school systems in America. The Texas school board orders all text books in mass for all school districts in the state which enables this board to dictate the content of all text books used in Texas and thus in the rest of the United States. Text book manufactures are more concerned with profits than good science. Educators have been complaining about this problem for years, but nobody listened. Now we have the beginings of a national science melt down if something is not done.
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Harold at 6:02 PM on 7/30/2007
J, as you suggest, it's bad news even outside of Texas, because it's easier for textbook companies to follow the lead of big states that adopt textbooks statewide, than it is to publish a dumb textbook for Texas and a smarter one for the rest of us. Statewide textbook adoptions are an abuse of government power in my book and should be abolished. But how likely are conservatives to follow their own supposed principles when they're in the saddle?
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J King at 1:31 PM on 7/31/2007
Harold, I agree that true conservatives as individuals very seldom follow through with there political rants, but as in the case of resent Supreme Court rulings concerning women’s health rights and equal pay a group of radicals can have a devastating impact. The man appointed in Texas would be the leader of a pack of radicals with a "religious mandate" to carry God’s word to us heathens who dare to question THE word of their God by believing in rational thought and experimentation. The Texas science program would be simply "don’t think, don’t question, God did it so just forget it". Do we want this to be our national science program? I think as rational Americans we have a duty to our nation and our children not to let this happen.
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Frank Sherwin (b. Cook County) at 11:44 AM on 8/1/2007
Natural selection is not as great a unifying idea as Coyne would like his students & readers to think. "Natural selection" is really just a high-sounding, misinforming term applied to the observation that some organisms in a varied population survive in greater numbers. That's all.
In 2003 evolutionist A.G. Fisher admitted, "Both the origin of life and the origin of the major groups of animals remains unknown."
The December 1999 issue of 'Science Teacher' ran an article entitled "Attitudes Toward Evolution" by 2 investigators, Weld & McNew, who "were surprised to unearth polar discord among preservice science teachers." The researchers came to this startling conclusion -
"Teachers are nearly split over the existence of scientific evidence for creationism (48 percent agree or strongly agree that there is much scientific evidence for creationism), though most do not perceive creationism and evolution as equally viable scientific alternatives for explaining present life forms." - p. 29
The issue of course is MACROevolution. It has not been observed in the laboratory, nor has it been 'seen' in the sedimentary rocks. In a review of 'Genetics, Paleontology & Macroevolution' by J.S. Levinton, Peter Forey of London’s Natural History Museum lamented, "Do not expect answers" (J. of Paleontology 77(1), p. 200). This is significant. Levinton’s book (2nd ed.) is substantial at 617 pages and 1,600 references. Surely there should be some facts of macroevolution in this tome – but there are none. Don’t expect answers.
Finally, I wonder what Coyne would say to the following? "A fair result can only be obtained by balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question." - Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species, 1859
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Steve S at 7:37 PM on 8/1/2007
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Natural selection is not as great a unifying idea as Coyne would like his students & readers to think. "Natural selection" is really just a high-sounding, misinforming term applied to the observation that some organisms in a varied population survive in greater numbers. That's all.
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Yea. That's all. Just like how the Big Bang was just an expansion of space.
The origin of life is NOT part of the theory of biological evolution. Never has been -- despite creationist attempts to tie the two together.
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"Teachers are nearly split over the existence of scientific evidence for creationism (48 percent agree or strongly agree that there is much scientific evidence for creationism), "
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What teachers? Public high school teachers? There's an old saying: You get what you pay for. Frankly, as a layman, I know more about the theory of biological evo than many public high school teachers.
If there is much SCIENTIFIC evidence for creationism, I'd sure like to see it presented -- and I've seen and read a great deal about creationism/ID.
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"A fair result can only be obtained by balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question." - Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species, 1859
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Right. And after giving the "other" side due consideration, Darwin completely demolished it.
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Marshall Hagy at 9:10 AM on 8/2/2007
If we had more people like Dr. Coyne reaching out and spreading reason and knowledge, the grip the yahoos have would be greatly diminished. Rational people tend to be complacent, whereas the irrational more emotional, and driven to spread their version of TRUTH, which got us into the dark ages.
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J King at 1:26 PM on 8/2/2007
I wish to thank Mr. Sherwin for demonstrating the typical anti science and anti evolution mind set of Intelligent Designers or Creationists. The ability for certain members of a population to out compete other members of the same population and to be able to successfully reproduce thus passing on their genes, if not a form of "only" "high-sounding" "misinforming" natural selection, then what? The "I.D.er", who or what ever he, she or it is, must have intelligently designed flaws on purpose or just may have made a few mistakes along the way. Darn!!! I was always taught that which we call divine was without flaw or error and now if natural selection doesn’t exist and the I.D.er did it all, what am I to think? How can the divine make anything imperfect? I would imagine that is what happens when you only take six days to create everything. Could the I.D.er not exist? Eureka! I have a fantastic idea. Let’s prove the I.D.er exists through science. We could find the I.D.er’s atomic weight, put I.D.er through an atomic absorber, a mass spec., NMR, IR, titrate, calculate, and even check the I.Der out under an electron microscope. We could do the whole C.S.I. routine on the I.D.er and have this case solved in less than and hour. No you say? How about we attribute everything we don’t understand yet to the I.D.er and then as we discover more and more about the physical world around us we can subtract that from the I.D.er’s existence. We could create a whole new field of study, "Dedeificationism" or we could call it the "Enlightenment". No you say again? I am so sorry. I forgot the cardinal rules of Intelligent Design: Don’t question, Don’t think, Disregard the facts, Fabricate, Pontificate, and just blindly Believe
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Frank Sherwin at 6:33 PM on 8/2/2007
I appreciate what King & Steve (Stephen King?) have said - and what they didn't say. But I must agree with the late English evolutionary biologist who wrote the Intro to Darwin's infamous 1859 book (1971 ed):
"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an unproved theory — is it then a science or a faith? Belief in the theory of evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation — both are concepts which believers know to be true but neither, up to the present, has been capable of proof."
Despite the arrogance of Steve S. who revels in his supposed knowledge of how people came from hydrogen gas, I side with the above quote.
I'm glad he mentioned the big bang, which has never been observed and for which there are serious scientific problems. S.S. also brings up the tired saw of trying to separate the origin of life & biological evolution. He's wrong. The 2 go together like politics & corruption. But I don't blame ya, Steve. If I were a darwinist I'd sure try to keep the 2 separate! P.C.J. Donoghue said waaaay back in 2007, "The origin of animals is almost as much a mystery as the origin of life itself" (Nature v. 445, p. 155).
I gave the reference for the 1999 issue of Science Teacher, Steve. Please read it.
What did darwin "completely demolish"? He certainly never addressed the origin of species in his book of the same title - and he also had a chapter entitled 'Difficulties with the theory'. He spoke a lot about natural selection which is very limited as to what it can do.
A majority of J King's infantile rantings don't require an answer. Example: "Don’t question, Don’t think, Disregard the facts, Fabricate, Pontificate, and just blindly Believe." I have a master's degree (zoology) from a secular university. In order to do my thesis at the feet of darwinists I had to think, question and absorb facts (while shunning the unobserved philosophy of macroevolution - which neither King or Steve addressed!).
Macroevolution remains the issue, "The [evolutionary] relationships among most metazoan phyla remain uncertain" Science, v. 310, p. 1933.
As one English atheist stated in '99, "Almost all our information about macroevolution has come from the fossil record and, as we have seen, there are doubts as to how reliable this is" Controversy, p. 124.
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moon_grrl at 11:11 AM on 8/3/2007
Frank:
For having a MS from a secular university, I am rather surprised at the fact that you seem not to grasp the basics of evolutionary theory and instead use terms like "darwinists" and nitpick at micro vs macro evolution. Rather than quote mine, use weasel words, and throw personal insults to refute you, I'm directing you towards the talkorgins.org FAQ: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html
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Frank Sherwin at 1:21 PM on 8/3/2007
Hi moongirl -
I tire responding to the oft-repeated accusations of my supposed failing to understand macroevolutionary philosophy. While in grad school I was required by my atheist prof to take a 500-level course entitled 'evolution' (have you had such a course?). We used Ayala & Valentine's 1979 text and I received an excellent final grade. As long as you accuse me of 'quote mining', I'll add this gem from p. 257 of the text: "To be sure [there's the dogma], both butterflies and humans have descended from a remote common ancestor, most likely [!] a small wormlike marine animal resembling a flatworm." I love zoology, but I dislike having to read such religious nonsense. BTW, I was able to attend Ayala's underwhelming presentation at a UC school 2 months ago regarding the topic darwin & intelligent design. He spent very little time on alleged evidence for (macro)evolution and a whole lot of time on the history (yawn) of evolutionism. So yes, I understand macroevolutionary theory, it's just that you and others on this post are upset that as a biologist I don't genuflect before darwin's altar.
"nitpick at micro vs macro evolution" Finally, someone is willing to address the issue at hand! As I have been saying all along on this post, macroevolution is the issue. Coyne & Orr did a disappointing job in addressing macroevolution in 1 of their books as reported in American Scientist (v 92, p. 560), "A final chapter on macroevolution is rather anticlimactic and very different from the other chapters."
I must agree with atheist Trevor Palmer of Nottingham Trent U when he said (1999), "However, some believed (and believe) that macroevolution is NOT simply a continuation of microevolution, but involves some extra factors. There is very little evidence from living organisms as to how macroevolution might work and, impressive though advances in molecular genetics have been over the past 40 years, the molecular basis of speciation is still a matter of speculation rather than certainty" (p. 122). Reminds me of what atheist biologist Brian Goodwin at the Open University said in his 1994 book, "Despite the power of molecular genetics to reveal the hereditary essences of organisms, the LARGE-SCALE aspects of evolution remain unexplained, including the origin of species" (from the Summary).
All the best, moongirl, in your search for Truth!
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moon_grrl at 2:53 PM on 8/3/2007
"So yes, I understand macroevolutionary theory, it's just that you and others on this post are upset that as a biologist I don't genuflect before darwin's altar."
Well, in my case, your lack of "Darwinian Faith" isn't what's disturbing, it's the almost incoherent ranting you do combined with the fact that you constantly have to point out whether or not the person you claim to be quoting is religious. I don't really see where someone's religious faith has much to do with whether or not they practice good science.
But what do I know? If I take the time to research, quote, and actually post links to the items I quote (rather than flippantly quote journals/magazines that most laypeople have very limited access to), I'd still be wasting my time. There's no dialogue to be had with zealots.
"All the best, moongirl, in your search for Truth!"
Well, Frank, you know what they say: Admire those who seek the truth and fear those who find it.
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dave at 7:14 PM on 8/3/2007
Harold,
You had a chuckle with William Dembski comparing Jerry Coyne to Herman Munster. But while we're at it, we should note this more recent post at Dembski's blog: a shocking confession that, yes, "unguided natural processes are perfectly competent to produce even the most extraordinarily complex phenomena, and the 'design' some people insist on inferring from complexity is merely an illusion"!
http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/identify-the-indian-or-shut-up
Go read it! It should prove greatly reassuring to all evolutionists. (I tried to link, but but it didn't work )
Jokes aside, I wholeheartedly agree with the term "Gospel of evolution," since evolutionism is indeed a religion. The responses of the "believers" here at this blog and elsewhere reveal the emotional fervency of their faith and their hostility toward unbelievers (especially amongst those presumed to be "laity"!) who would dare point out the holes in their Sacred Dogma. While I will defend anyone’s right to believe whatever they like, I resent the fact that goo-to-you-via-the-zoo has become the official state religion.
Sherwin, I’m sure that every time you present a factual objection to a True Believer Darwinist, they will always shoot back contemptuously, "Yoooouuuu just don’t understand the Sublime Mysteries of the Truth of Evolution!" Facts, quotations, whatever. None of it matters. Truly, "there’s no dialogue to be had with zealots."
Sherwin observes:
"Natural selection" is really just a high-sounding, misinforming term applied to the observation that some organisms in a varied population survive in greater numbers. That's all."
Nature can’t "select" for anything that’s not already present. Where did those already-present traits come from? Random mutation just doesn’t cut it. How does nature "select" for half of an eye? (Darwin himself posed the same question, though neither he nor his followers have answered it.)
To take an even broader look, "natural selection" is always alleged by Darwinists to have the power to "do" this or that. Thus "natural selection" can be described as a term of art that personifies, and furthermore, divinizes nature – attributing to it an ability to not only intelligently design by "selecting" traits, but also to create them in the first place. Nature creates itself (unobserved); nature works the miracle of turning goo into you (unobserved); nature is God. How is that less religious than intelligent design?
Finally, I wonder what Coyne would say to the following? "A fair result can only be obtained by balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question." - Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species, 1859
Darwin displayed a lot more humility than many of his followers.
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dave at 7:25 PM on 8/3/2007
Harold,
You had a chuckle with William Dembski comparing Jerry Coyne to Herman Munster. But while we're at it, we should note this more recent post at Dembski's blog: a shocking confession that, yes, "unguided natural processes are perfectly competent to produce even the most extraordinarily complex phenomena, and the 'design' some people insist on inferring from complexity is merely an illusion"!
http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/identify-the-indian-or-shut-up
Go read it! It should prove greatly reassuring to all evolutionists. (I tried to link, but but it didn't work )
Jokes aside, I wholeheartedly agree with the term "Gospel of evolution," since evolutionism is indeed a religion. The responses of the believers here at this blog and elsewhere reveal the emotional fervency of their faith and their hostility toward unbelievers (especially amongst those presumed to be "laity"!) who would dare point out the holes in their Sacred Dogma. While I will defend anyone’s right to believe whatever they like, I resent the fact that goo-to-you-via-the-zoo has become the official state religion, much like Roman Catholicism was throughout Europe 500 years ago.
Sherwin, I’m sure that every time you present a factual objection to a True Believer Darwinist, they will always shoot back contemptuously, "Yoooouuuu just don’t understand the Sublime Mysteries of the Truth of Evolution!" Facts, quotations, whatever. None of it matters. Truly, "there’s no dialogue to be had with zealots."
Sherwin observes:
"Natural selection" is really just a high-sounding, misinforming term applied to the observation that some organisms in a varied population survive in greater numbers. That's all."
Nature can’t "select" for anything that’s not already present. Where did those already-present traits come from? Random mutation just doesn’t cut it. How does nature "select" for half of an eye? (Darwin himself posed much the same question, though neither he nor his followers have answered it.)
To take an even broader look, "natural selection" is always alleged by Darwinists to have the power to "do" this or that. Thus "natural selection" can be described as a term of art that personifies, and furthermore, divinizes nature – attributing to it an ability to not only intelligently design by "selecting" traits, but also to create them in the first place. Nature creates itself (unobserved); nature works the miracle of turning goo into you (unobserved); nature is God. How is that less religious than intelligent design?
Finally, I wonder what Coyne would say to the following? "A fair result can only be obtained by balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question." - Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species, 1859
Darwin displayed a great deal more humility than many of his followers.
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Frank Sherwin at 6:06 PM on 8/4/2007
I agree with Dave's statement above, A secular zoology text states, "Natural selection can act only on those biologic properties that already exist; it cannot create properties in order to meet adaptational needs." - E. Noble, G. Noble, G. Schad and A. MacInnes, Parasitology: The Biology of Animal Parasites. Lea & Febiger, Philadelphia. 1989. Chapter 6, Evolution of Parasitism, p. 516
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J King at 12:54 PM on 8/5/2007
Aw come on guys. Please knock off destroying the straw man. "Nature can’t "select" for anything that’s not already present." Who ever implied other wise? "Random mutation just doesn’t cut it". All the data I have ever read clearly supports the theory that mutations occur with such frequency to more than account for natural selction to be successful.
Please present a testable alternative backed with emperical data. Neither one of you has presented anything constructive. The stage is yours. To date you have just been negative and melodramatic without presenting any shread of data to back up your claims.
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JT Burke at 7:13 PM on 8/5/2007
J.King -- a reasonable request. How about it guys?
Frank: Don't underestimate natural selection. If your zoological background doesn't supply enough evidence, look into some plant ecology. Defensive/reproductive resource allocation, hervivore predation selection combined with random abiotic factors (among other factors) should provide some fruitful research. As for evidence in the fossil record; pick up a copy of Journal of Paleontology or Paleobiology. JP should be especially interesting to you, it contains a great deal of zoological nomenclature. Also, in the midwest, The Midland Naturalist is a nice journal.
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cubiclegrrl at 10:15 PM on 8/7/2007
The idea that evolution must be weighed side by side with creationism is a shoddy argument meant to play to our sense of justice. But it's not even an apples-to-bananas comparison. It's like saying that mathemeticians have to consider the merits of 2 + 2 = puppy. Puppies (like creationism) are good for warm fuzzies, but they won't help you balance your checkbook or do your taxes. Or do anything else even worthy of the name of math.
When ID comes up with some hard data, science will pay attention. But it is, and always will be a bunch of whining third-tier intellectuals and would-be political malcontents who can't be bothered to sully their hands with (gasp!) ACTUAL SCIENCE. And they (and those gullible marks who want so desperately to believe them) deserve every bit of ridicule they get.
And the argument that evolution is a religion is equally bogus. No god, no religion. Period. More to the point, science demands data and observation. Faith closes its eyes when presented with any contrary evidence. You can't get more diametrically opposed than that.
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Richard Fox at 3:01 PM on 8/10/2007
Hi Frank & Dave,
You claim the evidence from molecular genetics is unpersuasive. Are you aware of the fact that most higher animals can synthesize vitamin C; however humans and other primates cannot because their copy of a gene used for the biosynthesis of vitamin C have all been crippled in exactly the same way: by a deletion at position 97 compared to the same gene in rat [Ohta and Nishikimi (1999) Biochim. Biophyis. Acta. 1472:408-411]. This is why humans get scurvy if their diet is deficient in vitamin C. The probability that humans and other primates would share exactly the same crippling mutation, if it occurred separately through random mutation, is vanishingly small.
Can you propose a hypothesis as to why a designer would do this?
Think about this crippled gene every time you enjoy an orange…
Best,
Richard
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dave at 10:51 PM on 8/13/2007
JT Burke writes:
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Defensive/reproductive resource allocation, hervivore predation selection combined with random abiotic factors (among other factors)
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At bottom, you’re saying that "highly complex systems of information and order arose spontaneously from non-information and chaos with no organizing intelligence." That is the standard metaphysical naturalist argument. What’s the proof? "Everything is here, so it must have happened." That’s not proof. It’s not even a good argument. First before we engrave it on stone tablets as Absolute Truth the "fact" that this happened, I’d at least like to see actual examples of this spontaneous organization of amazingly complex encoded messages and structures occurring in the real world. If there are none, then I’d like to know why there’s this jihad against the simple idea that our world actually could have been designed by higher intelligence(s)?
Cubiclegrrl– one point of irony: Darwinism only survives because of people "closing their eyes to contrary evidence"!
The rest of your post is more name-calling unworthy of response, except to say that it’s hard to distinguish your attitude from the alleged attitude of the fundamentalists you love to hate so much.
Richard Fox – an interesting and ironic argument.
a) Of course parallel mutations would have been unlikely -- but no more unlikely than the untold billions? …trillions? of lucky random mutations that neo-Darwinism claims are the basis of diversity! What kinds of mutations are "likely" or "unlikely," I guess, depends on which argument you are making at a given moment.
b) In the face of mountains of evidence of design – it is literally everywhere – the vitamin C issue constitutes not a refutation but an interesting question to answer. (As Darwinists are wont to say when confronted with any one of the approximately 8,958,653,980 unanswered questions about evolution!)
There may well have been good reasons for a designer to have disabled the gene in three different species (guinea pigs being the other). This injects an unknown in to the situation, but evolution creates infinite unknowns – yet is proclaimed as The True Religion!
c) In my opinion, homology arguments for evolution – i.e., "similarities prove common descent" are as convincing as the argument that similarities between different models of Ford trucks proves common descent of Ford Trucks. (Except, of course, in the figurative sense that they both arose from the drawing boards of engineers at the same company – in other words, the same Intelligent Designer.)
Why can’t we at least say, "okay, nobody knows it all and no one model has to have an official monopoly." Is that too much to ask?
By the way, I’m not aware of Frank’s views on this matter, but just to clear something up: There are intelligent design advocates, and there are special Creationists. Despite the likes of Coyne conflating the two for polemical/political purposes, they are distinct categories. Creationists (at least, Jewish, Christian and Muslim ones) believe in the creation account of Genesis, usually in their most literal interpretation. IDers do not bring any religious text or belief into their work; they are all about pointing out scientific evidence of design. They have nothing to say about who or what the designer was or what religion to believe in. They do not base their model on any scripture.
While creationists are happy when IDers present evidence of design, ID is in no way a religious discipline.
While of course all creationists are IDers, I would guess very few identifying with ID are strict creationists. Creationists generally want to advocate for Genesis, the Flood, and generally are evangelistic about presenting a religious message.
Some IDers (such as Denton and Behe) actually accept evolution as a fact or a possibility: they just believe it could not have happened without intelligent guidance, because of, again, all the evidence of design staring us in the face.
By contrast, I, as a creationist, cannot accept evolution because
a) when presented honestly, the evidence for lucky random mutations creating the sort of intricately arranged information systems we see today is unconvincing
b) when presented honestly, the evidence for "common descent" is unconvincing
c) the best evidence that we have shows that most, if not all, life arose pretty suddenly at about the same time
d) it just makes more sense to me, as a small–c creator of many things from information to music to art; and
d) of course religious background plays a role too, but not so strong a role that real evidence to the contrary would not change my mind. There just isn’t any so far that will stand up to scrutiny.
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j King at 8:50 AM on 8/14/2007
Dave, I again would like to point out to you that all you are saying is "I don’t agree" without presenting one shred of evidence to support any of your claims. Opinions are just opinions without anything presented that can be tested. You made the statement "In the face of mountains of evidence of design". I have been mining the internet to find one crumb of evidence that might support your position. I have found nothing because there is no evidence. Every argument presented by any creationist has been so destroyed, debunked, and torn apart that it is not even worth mentioning. Creationists have done nothing but attack modern Biology, Cosmology, Geology, Anthropology and even Psychiatry with no positive contributions. I am still waiting for any creationist theory backed by testable evidence. Intelligent Design was dead on arrival. That which appears to be irreducible complexity was predicted around the turn of the last century by a Noble Prize winning German Biologist and was is predictable part of evolution. Mythology is not science. No religion is science. Science is not religion. Religions are based on gods and demons, spirit worlds, good and evil, creators and destroyers, and things that go bump in the night. Religions are created in the minds of man to compensate for the fear of the unknown, to lay blame for human short comings and failings. A recent collaborative study between Biology and Psychiatry has come up with a theory that the creation of religious beliefs by all human societies is a detrimental biological remnant of a survival mechanism of early humans. The creation of the supernatural is biological. Religion can be compared to the need of a baby to carry a teddy bear or blanket for comfort. Science tries to explain the unknown through observations and testing. Science presents testable ideas; some appear correct but fail later on and are replaced by new ideas that better explain what the world is all about. Every question answered by science generates hundreds of new questions. Are all the questions answered? No! Science doesn’t even know all the questions to ask. Dave you are hardly a person to call anyone to task about name calling "Catholic Goo". I could assume by this statement that you would be up for a nice pogrom or crusade. Creationism is nothing more than a fragile belief system based on the literal interpretation of a corrupted book of mythology. Creationism is a rejection of knowledge and an insult to the divine, and act hubris.
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Richard Fox at 9:44 AM on 8/14/2007
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the response. I'm glad to see you find the crippled oxidase psuedogene as difficult to explain as I do given the creationist model. One point I want to make sure you're aware of is that the exact same crippling mutation appears in humans and other primates as well as guinea pigs. To be clear that’s more than 3 species unless you’re counting all the primates together (sans humans) as a single species but I would doubt you’re willing to do that given the gross differences between, say chimpanzee, orangutan, and macaque. And they ALL have the same crippling mutation. The probability of this occurring by chance in this many species is essentially zero. It’s either common design or common descent. And yet, the working gene provides its organisms with vitamin C. You are proposing that the designer has some other purpose for this broken gene for us and other primates? Why would it look like the functional gene but be disabled with a deletion and yet serve some other unknown function? This is quite hard to fathom.
You should also be aware of the fact that our genome, along with those of our mammalian relatives, are littered with many examples of processed pseudogenes. These are genetic elements which have been incorporated from mature mRNA (the introns have been spliced out) back into the genome as full length but "dead on arrival" genes because they lack promoters. Now if you go and compare many of these processed (or retrotransposed) pseudogenes between humans and other primates you’ll find extremely high degrees of similarity that correspond nicely to when species diverged. You might argue (and would be correct) that some fraction of these psuedogenes will be exapted by the evolutionary process and become functional in other contexts (for example by regulating gene expression) and perhaps we don’t know what their function is just yet. This leads to the whole discussion of how much of the "junk" DNA in our genomes is actually functional and it’s an open question at the moment and one which scientists are pursing with vigor and curiosity. However, the likelihood that every last one of these elements will be found to have a function is exceedingly low. For example, large sections of the mouse genome have been knocked out and there was no identifiable impact on the organism [Norbrega et al. (2004) Nature 431:988-993]. The abstract reads as follows:
"The functional importance of the roughly 98% of mammalian genomes not corresponding to protein coding sequences remains largely undetermined. Here we show that some large-scale deletions of the non-coding DNA referred to as gene deserts can be well tolerated by an organism. We deleted two large non-coding intervals, 1,511 kilobases and 845 kilobases in length, from the mouse genome. Viable mice homozygous for the deletions were generated and were indistinguishable from wild-type littermates with regard to morphology, reproductive fitness, growth, longevity and a variety of parameters assaying general homeostasis. Further detailed analysis of the expression of multiple genes bracketing the deletions revealed only minor expression differences in homozygous deletion and wild-type mice. Together, the two deleted segments harbour 1,243 non-coding sequences conserved between humans and rodents (more than 100 base pairs, 70% identity). Some of the deleted sequences might encode for functions unidentified in our screen; nonetheless, these studies further support the existence of potentially 'disposable DNA' in the genomes of mammals."
This is an astounding level of non-functional similarity between the human and mouse genomes. These 1,243 non-coding sequences appear to have no discernable function in mouse yet they are highly similar to their human counterparts. Why would a common designer do this? Your analogy of the Ford trucks breaks down if you saw lots of useless and broken parts that were highly similar between models. Are you willing to make a further concession that your "designer" is wasteful, capricious, and decidedly unintelligent? Humans can clean up the junk out of genomes. Does that make us smarter than the creator?
Best,
Richard
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cubiclegrrl at 9:26 PM on 8/17/2007
"While creationists are happy when IDers present evidence of design, ID is in no way a religious discipline. "
Hogwash.
IDers start out with the supposition that some supernatural creature made it all. Without a testable hypothesis, Dembski and Behe are philosophers of the same stripe as Aristophanes mocked so many centuries ago. A "theory" without data and without testable hypotheses is faith, no matter how you slice it.
More to the point, IDer can't seem to get out of bed with either the religious right (the Discovery Institute being bankrolled by Harold Ahmanson, a Dominionist who wants to promulgate a theocratic takeover of the United States). Nor can they distance themselves from right-wing hatemongering politics (witness Dembski providing material for Ann Coulter's most recent book).
The bottom line is that the DI cannot and will not distance itself from the very folks who are undermining any claim to intellectual rigor that they claim. Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas.
Sadly, the fact that snake-oil like ID has actually made such inroads into the curriculum of US classroom goes hand-in-hand with the loss of our technological edge. For all I know, "magical thinking" like creationism/ID may be yet another symptom, rather than the disease itself. But creationists and their enablers in government are only exascerbating the offshoring of our national braintrust and economic stability. History will not be forgiving.
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Todd Laurence at 9:57 AM on 8/18/2007
According to Carl Jung, and the physicist, W. Pauli, (Nobel laureate) - intelligent design is a fact, and they concluded that the principle of acausality would
eventually prove that reality.
Here is the first scientific verification....
http://www.webspawner.com/users/cosmic/
"man has need of the word, but in essence number is sacred." Jung
"entelekk" numomathematics
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dave at 5:25 PM on 8/18/2007
j King said:
"Dave, I again would like to point out to you that all you are saying is "I don’t agree" without presenting one shred of evidence to support any of your claims."
Huh? It is Darwinists who make "sweeping claims without evidence." It is Darwin who observed physical similarities in life forms and leapt to the conclusion, sans any facts, that they all must be descended from a common ancestor. It is Darwinists who declare, with all the assurance of a papal decree, that life arose spontaneously and evolved gradually into its present amazingly complex state – with no goal, no purpose and no intelligence overseeing the process. It was Darwinists who, absent any evidence whatsoever, achieved a propaganda and political coup by casting it as a "church vs. state" issue and ramrodded this idea down the throats of the public as an official doctrine. Seeing the absolutist nature of these claims, I would expect the burden of proof to lie with Darwinists. If these claims are true, by now the evidence should be overflowing. The actual evidence – empirical or even theoretical – is striking in its absence. Darwinists have put forth a revolving succession of "missing link" fossils which are later debunked and quietly (or publicly) withdrawn. (Where are the living links, anyway? Why are all of the links conveniently missing? There ought to be lots of them around, since presumably, each successive change makes an organism "more fit" than its ancestor. Why do we have reptiles and birds, but no bird-tiles?)
Aside from that, there is a lot of conjecture, wishful thinking, and imaginative artists’ renderings which are somehow imagined to be "evidence." To be The Truth, evolution needs to show the proof. It’s not there.
There is no biological evidence that chance evolution *could* occur. There is no unchallenged paleontological evidence that evolution of any kind *has* occurred. There is no "mechanism" of evolution; there is no "fact" of evolution; there is nothing at all. (Need it be said: superficial variation is NOT evolution! It is not even "microevolution" as some are given to call it. It is merely variation, of the kind that humans have utilized by selectively breeding plants and animals for centuries. No new species has ever arisen through such efforts, nor through the mightiest efforts of Darwinist researchers trying to intelligently design "evolution" in the lab.)
What Dr. Colin Patterson said in 1981 is still true.
----------------
One of the reasons I started taking this anti-evolutionary view, or let's call it a non- evolutionary view, was last year I had a sudden realization for over twenty years I had thought I was working on evolution in some way. One morning I woke up and something had happened in the night and it struck me that I had been working on this stuff for twenty years and there was not one thing I knew about it. That's quite a shock to learn that one can be so misled so long. Either there was something wrong with me or there was something wrong with evolutionary theory. …
Question is: Can you tell me anything you know about evolution, any one thing, that is true? I tried that question on the geology staff at the Field Museum of Natural History and the only answer I got was silence. I tried it on the members of the Evolutionary Morphology Seminar in the University of Chicago, a very prestigious body of evolutionists, and all I got there was silence for a long time and eventually one person said, "I do know one thing - it ought not to be taught in high school."
Gillespie also said that creationism is an anti-theory, a void that has the function of knowledge but conveys none. Well, what about evolution? It certainly has the function of knowledge but does it convey any? Well we're back to the question that I've been putting to people. "Is there any one thing you can tell me about evolution?" The absence of answers seems to suggest that it is true, evolution does not convey any knowledge or if so, I haven't yet heard of it.
Well, here we all are. We all have shelves of books on evolution. We've all read tons of them and most of us have written one or two. How could it be that some Donald Black had read these books and learned nothing from them? How could I work on evolution twenty years and learn nothing from it? Gillespie's comment: "a void that has the function of knowledge but conveys none" seems to me to be very precise, very apt. …
I think many people in this room would acknowledge that during the last few years if you had thought about it at all, you've experienced a shift from evolution as knowledge, to EVOLUTION AS FAITH. I know that's true of me and I think it's true of good many of you in here. …
http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/pattam01.html
[emphasis added]
----------------
We’re dealing with a philosophy that is expedient for those who believe in it. Insofar as it is accepted not on actual evidence but on faith in the say-so of highly placed authorities, it is for all practical purposes a religion. That is why people like moongrrl are getting so up in arms about it.
discodave1974@yahoo.com
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dave at 6:01 PM on 8/18/2007
Richard,
I am no more sure than you what happened to the oxidase psuedogene -- nor am I sure how the disabling of this gene would prove evolution, since it would seem to be more a case of "devolution."
In any case, the bottom line is that you're arguing that a hypothetical process which has never been observed and which has left no evidence, is The Truth.
Sorry, I just don't have the *faith* to buy that scenario.
Now, just as Darwinists might speculate about a "mechanism" for the empirically unsupportable hypothesis of evolution, I as a creationist might speculate as to why the creator created a certain way. (I'm sure more knowledgable persons than myself have much better answers.) Our speculation does not change the facts before us.
Darwinian evolution would have left a long trail of evidence, both biological and paleontological.
If evolution were the driving force behind all of life, it ought to be still occurring. We ought to see it at work all around us all the time. We ought to be literally surrounded by still-evolving life forms with half-developed features or halfway between one species and another. In fact, there shouldn't be discernible species or divisions of any kind at all; we should see one blending into the next by millions of barely perceptible gradations.
Why don't we have ape-men wandering the earth? If every biological trait exists because it improves "fitness,' then ape ("ape-like ancestor" if you insist) became ape-man because ape-man traits were superior. But the apes are still around, in abundance, while the "fitter" ape-man is not. Why would the omniscient, omnipotent force of natural selection leave lots of apes here, while the newer, improved ape-men have vanished without a trace?
Similarly, if birds evolved from reptiles, shouldn't there be at least a couple of bird-tiles still flying around out there (perhaps even some half-winged ones), since half-winged bird-tiles would have been more "fit" than reptiles? Why is it that every life form that would prove evolution is conveniently unavailable?
As if the living evidence weren't embarrassing enough to Darwin, then there's the fossil record. Since all of Darwin's purported links are "extinct," hey, that's okay, we can look at their fossils, right?
WRONG. Those don't exist either.
Not only are all the transitional forms conveniently unavailable for comment, they haven't even seen fit to leave so much as a fossil behind! What's with them?
There's a reason for all those blank spaces in the "evolutionary tree" chart. They don't exist. They never did.
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Richard Fox at 11:06 AM on 8/19/2007
Hi Dave,
You wrote, "I am no more sure than you what happened to the oxidase psuedogene -- nor am I sure how the disabling of this gene would prove evolution, since it would seem to be more a case of ‘devolution.’ "
It’s not a question of being sure. It’s about which hypothesis is more parsimonious. On this measure common ancestry appears to completely rout common design.
I apologize for assuming what I thought was obvious. The presence of the oxidase pseudogene is very strong evidence for common ancestry because it’s essentially a fossilized gene. The most parsimonius explanation for its existence, given that all the evidence points to the idea that it’s useless, is that it was inherited from a common ancestor of all primates. Is this clear? If not, please let me know.
I’m not sure it’s correct to characterize this as a case of "devolution". The current thinking is that the ancestors of extant primates had diets plentiful enough in vitamin C that there was no selection pressure maintained on the oxidase gene. Evolution can only serve to maintain or improve functions that are required. A hallmark of evolution is that random mutation usually (but not always) disables features if they are not selected for. The disabling of the oxidase gene is entirely consistent with this concept. It’s not devolution if the organisms’ niche no longer requires a certain trait. Think of it as a vestigial organ at the molecular level, like those tiny, useless snake legs that boas and pythons have that you should have seen if you’ve been to a museum [Cohn & Tickle (1999) Nature. 399:474-479]. These morphological and molecular vestiges are quite compelling and they ought to convince you that species are indeed observed to be in flux.
Now in light of the above, how is the creation model more parsimonius? As I mentioned in my last post, the oxidase gene is only one example of many that suggest there are large regions of disposable DNA that we share with other organisms. You have sidestepped this devastating critique of common "unintelligent" design. So I will ask you again. How strong must your cognitive dissonance be to hold a view that is so completely wanting of explanation with respect to these observations? Do you have any tenable hypothesis that would allow you to weave these facts into a creation/design model? If not, then why not concede that evolutionary theory is the preferred model here given that it fits this data so much more cleanly?
Best,
Richard
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bipolar2 at 8:59 PM on 8/28/2007
** It's the Ideology, stupid!**
You're wasting your time.
Your twittering about an alleged god, gods, divine committee in charge of the universe is unimportant and uninteresting.
The minimum standard god of U.S. law ("in god we trust") or the god of some double-thinking scientists, or the god of Kant simply can not be assumed to be the divinity claimed by the big-3 monotheisms.
When Nietzsche said, "God is dead" he added a gloss in explication -- "the belief that belief in the Christian God is no longer believable."
The almighty lords of dualism: Ahura Mazda, Yahweh, God, and Allah are moral equivalents of comic book super-villains. Each is dead. The remaining pulp fiction enjoys fanatical cult followings.
Don't however mistake political ideology for religious belief. Wherever ideology reduces to theology secular politics does not exist.
Secularism corrupts. Tolerance capitulates to evil. Only puritanism saves.
The holy text is merely pretext. Ideology masquerading as religion bamboozles the masses, the media. Telemullahs there, televangelists here.
Real terrorist threats in the U.S.: Xians undermining the Constitution, trashing biological science, and perverting education to suit a disgusting totalitarian ideology of social control and cultural domination, underwritten by the MI complex. [The disgusting Bushite administration represents only a prototype.]
Home-grown christo-fascists threaten the life of the Republic much more than all so-called Islamo-fascists combined.
bipolar2
copyright asserted 2007
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Frank Sherwin at 3:52 PM on 10/8/2007
My, but this post has generated much hate & intolerance from the likes of bipolar2 & kubiklegrll. Their baseless vitriol does not warrant an extended answer. But I must agree with the latter when she(?) said, "A "theory" without data and without testable hypotheses is faith, no matter how you slice it" - a better desription of the synthetic theory (neo-darwinism) I have not read and I shall use her quote often.
JT Burke is a lot more civil and I appreciate his approach.
The issue remains, where is the empirical evidence for MACROevolution? After all, "A "theory" without data and without testable hypotheses is faith, no matter how you slice it." Why didn't Gould list case after case for macroevolution in his magnum opus, SET? How about Levinton's 2nd edition? Nothing compelling. His explanation of the Cambrian explosion (Ch 8) is obtuse and Campbell & Meyer (2003) do a great job in exposing it.
With increased research, molecular phylogenies are insignificant (see Jack Kyte, Structure in Protein Chemistry, ch. 7). Most amino acid substiutions are simply no longer important from a Darwinian perspective.
Bipolar2 needs serious & extended help. Her last post is so hateful it's actually amusing! Seriously, she needs to review all the violent & bloody acts precipitated by muslims since 9/11. Remember 9/11, bipolar? That's when islamo-fascists murdered over 3000 innocent people. I'm no Prophet, but I really think these bloody acts of islamic terrorism will increase.
PS
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v14/i3/pseudogenes_genomes.asp
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Sebastian at 10:06 AM on 10/13/2007
I think my favourite part of this debate was when dave said that he asked those evolutionists to tell him one thing about Evolution that was true and then none of them could actually say anything. I bet god was laughing at them.
If the bible is so incorrect, why is it that almost everyone believes it and accepts it whereas you atheists are in the extreme minority. Your theories don't even work out.
Read genesis and you'll know what really happened.
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J King at 7:56 AM on 10/15/2007
Oh Boy! Sebastion, try going to talkorigins.org if you want an extensive list of proof of evolution, but on second thought it would be just a waste of your time since no matter what is written all a creationist comes back with is "I don’t agree", nothing constructive ever, just "I don’t agree". Sherwin, the hate and intolerance you write of are the direct reflections of your own hate and intolerance. You have continually labeled anyone who doesn’t agree with your personal religious views as being inferior. "Islamo-fascists", labeling like that is cultural, religious, and racial discrimination. In America there is freedom of thought and religion, not a theocracy. All religious belief systems are on equal footing. Freedom of religion is also freedom from religious persecution.Sebastion, the vast majority of the people in the world don’t believe in the literal interpretation of your version of the Bible, your Bible as the word of God, or even in your version of the Bible to begin with. Evangelicals are a micro minority in the global Christian world.
Dave, the last you posted had one of the oldest quote mines on the web. Quote mining is just a fancy form of lying, great Christian value there.
Patterson said he was not expressing doubt that evolution had happened, and he felt that his "cladograms" were evidence for evolution. For example, here is a quote from the end of the last book he wrote before he died:
The] "misprints" shared between species ... are (to me) incontrovertible evidence of common descent
"I was too naive and foolish to guess what might happen:
the talk was taped by a creationist who passed the tape
to Luther Sunderland... Since, in my view, the tape was
obtained unethically, I asked Sunderland to stop circulating
the transcipt, but of course to no effect. There is not much
point in my going through the article point by point. I was
putting a case for discussion, as I thought off the record,
and was speaking only about systematics, a specialized field.
I do not support the creationist movement in any way, and in
particular I am opposed to their efforts to modify school
curricula. In short the article does not fairly represent my
views. But even if it did, so what? The issue should be
resolved by rational discussion, and not by quoting
'authorities,' which seems to be the creationists' principal
mode of argument." (Letter from Colin Patterson to Steven W.
Binkley, June 17, 1982).
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Frank Sherwin at 11:32 AM on 10/15/2007
Oh, the intolerance and hate king is showing. If I am so intolerant, why did I choose to attend both a secular college and university to do my zoological studies?
Says king, "You have continually labeled anyone who doesn’t agree with your personal religious views as being inferior." Huh? I never said anyone was "inferior" - continually or otherwise. As for "personal religious views", it's your PRV (materialism/atheism) against mine.
It sounds very much like you're defending the islamo-fascists who murdered over 3000 people on 9/11, and their ilk continue to do so on a violent, daily basis. Evidently you want to defend their bloody actions by labeling me discriminatory. Tell me king, if the 9/11 terrorists weren't islamo-fascists - what were they?
"Theocracy" - I never used that word, nor did I allude to it.
King's high-sounding, "All religious belief systems are on equal footing." sounds noble, but as you can see by his hate & intolerance toward those who are Christians, he's excluding the Christian faith from his statement. Those who scream for tolerance are the most intolerant folk I know. And yes, king, I am intolerant (to neo-darwinism taught as fact using my tax dollar$). BTW - I sure am glad Churchill was intolerant of nazis - and Reagan was intolerant of communists.
VERY bad news for darwinsts is to be found here - written by an atheist:
http://www.biology-direct.com/content/2/1/21#IDA2DWZO
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J King at 3:48 PM on 10/15/2007
Frank do you even read what you write? Why don’t you go back and read exactly what you have written, the wording you have used, and the tone in which it was written for starters. Now go through and count how many times you have thrown atheism, atheist, materialism or any number of like minded phrases and innuendoes into the mix. As to why did you choose a secular college and university to do your zoological studies, easy, to get a valid, sellable degree so you could get a decent job or maybe you even had aspirations to get into Med. School? Your own writings seem to point to a certain disingenuousness on your part as in "genuflect before Darwin’s altar" and "forced to take a 500 level Evolution course by your, of course, "atheist prof.", but you received a good grade. This creates a rather negative impression of yourself. "Those who scream tolerance are the most intolerant folk I know." You just have to be kidding me. I can only assume that you are a strict interpritaionist evangelical Christian which by definition shows little or no tolerance for any other religions, not even other Christians, who aren’t Christians in their eyes. Do you understand why "Theocracy" comes to mind? Your lamenting about going to a secular college and University is tiresome considering I graduated from a state university over thirty five years ago and also attended a "Christian" college prior to graduation. The intolerance and hate of other religions and Christian groups that was preached at that little Christian college has stayed with me for the rest of my life. I am not an atheist. I am not a materialist. I am who I am. My religious beliefs are my personal religious beliefs. I attend the church of my choice every Sunday. I seek the divine in the way that is correct for me. I also support your right to seek the divine is your way as long as you never try to impose your religious beliefs on me. As for 911, a tragedy of epoch proportions, a failure of global foreign policy, a tragic clash of cultures, and religious zealotry to the extreme degree. Remember those people died for their God striking at the Christian devil that is trying to destroy their own true religion. Can the murder of the innocent be justified, no, but our very own country has done mass killings in time of war. Is this a war, yes, but what kind of war?
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A Smith at 8:51 PM on 10/20/2007
Interesting that neither Frank nor Dave has as of yet produced one piece of evidence FOR there view. We are all still waiting.
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It's me. at 2:41 PM on 10/31/2007
The issue is not evidence but the interpretation of the evidence. Even S. J. Gould said that "Evidence is interpreted in teh light of theory." So the evos see all evidence as pointing to evo. and IDers and Creationists see everything as pointing to a designer. Where it comes from is not at all important to science, but critical to one's philosophy and religion.
One does not need to swallow evolution to do anything but be an evolutionary biologist. One of my exstudents is finishing her doctoral in oncology and said that evolution was rarely mentioned and had no bearing on her work at all.
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J King at 3:19 PM on 11/1/2007
The issue is not evidence but the interpretation of the evidence. Even S. J. Gould said that "Evidence is interpreted in the light of theory." ‘It's me’, I believe you are trying to convey the idea that the theory comes before the evidence and that the evidence is cherry picked to support the theory.
The Scientific method dictates that:
1. Observe some aspect of the universe.
2. Invent a tentative description, a hypothesis that is consistent with what you have observed.
3. Make predictions using the hypothesis.
4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and modify the hypothesis in light of your results, not results in light of your hypothesis.
5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between theory and experiment and /or observation.
When consistency is obtained the hypothesis becomes a theory and provides a coherent set of propositions which explain a class of phenomena. A theory is then a framework within which observations are explained and predictions are made. A theory is accepted on the results obtained through observations and/or experiments which anyone can reproduce: the results obtained using the scientific method are repeatable. Most experiments and observations are repeated many times (certain experiments are not repeated independently but are repeated as parts of other experiments). If the original claims are not verified the origin of such discrepancies is hunted down and exhaustively studied.
Data and observations are always being reviewed and interpretations can differ and alternative hypothesis can be formulated and tested, that is science. The Theory of Evolution is historically the most challenged and tested theory in history and has stood the test of time with flying colors. In the case of Creationism, no testable hypothesis has as yet to be presented and in the case of Id the arguments used have been soundly refuted. In the case of Id I do agree that "Evidence is interpreted in the light of theory." Religious mythology is simply not science.
"One does not need to swallow evolution to do anything but be an evolutionary biologist. One of my exstudents is finishing her doctoral in oncology and said that evolution was rarely mentioned and had no bearing on her work at all."
PHILADELPHIA -- The theory of evolution plays well within the environment of a cancerous tumor, researchers in Philadelphia said. "A tumor cell population is constantly evolving through natural selection," said Carlo Maley, an assistant professor in the Molecular and Cellular Oncogenesis Program at Wistar Institute, and senior author of the review. "The mutations that benefit the survival and reproduction of cells in a tumor are the things that drive it towards malignancy." Maley said in a news release evolution also drives a cancer cell's resistance to therapies. He said the three conditions necessary for natural selection to occur are present in a population of tumor cells. The first requirement, variation in the population, is evident in tumors, which are made up of mutant genes. The second condition, heritable variation, can be seen when mutant tumor cells divide to replicate, the subsequent cells share the same mutations. The third condition, that variation must affect fitness, is present because all characteristics considered hallmarks of cancer affect fitness. Because evolution occurs in the tumor, Maley said doctors should "think about how we might want to influence that evolution. Can we push it down paths that might be more beneficial to us?"
Copyright 2006 by United Press International
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Jade at 6:06 PM on 11/25/2007
If you want to read the gospel of evolution in black and white, check out the new book "Thank God for Evolution." You can download it free at http://thankgodforevolution.com.
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j King at 6:13 PM on 12/13/2007
Frank Sherwin is a staff scientist, speaker, and prolific author for the Institute for Creation Research in San Diego. Sherwin’s current goals are to continue to publish creation science articles, books and research. His current projects include authoring the ‘origins’ and ‘plant science’ sections of a college-level biology text written from a creation science perspective. I doubt that there is another Frank Sherwin with an MA. A very good mind going to waste is a very sad thing indeed.
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