Under the InfluenceTV on the Radio are one of the best bands in the world, but having them all over your record can be a mixed blessing.
By Jessica Hopper November 22, 2007
TV on the Radio have been credited with inspiring a wave of black indie-rock bands—and considering that indie rock has been punishingly white for as long as it’s been drawing breath, it’s easy to hang that on them—but it’s undercutting their power to assume that their influence flows exclusively along racial lines. They’re one of the contemporary greats, one of my favorites and probably one of yours too, and echoes of the TVOTR boom and sway can be heard on the albums and MySpace pages of a glut of new acts. Maybe those bands are ambitious, and perceptive enough to realize that ripping off Animal Collective isn’t going to get them very far at this late date—or maybe TVOTR guitarist and producer Dave Sitek helped them make their records. The Modern Tribe, the second full-length from the Baltimore trio Celebration, is clearly the work of a band camped out at the base of Cookie Mountain. Guitarless on the new disc, save for a couple cameos from Nick Zinner of the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, Celebration are fundamentally different from TVOTR in instrumental makeup—it’s mostly Sean Antanaitas playing keys (including a guitorgan, a guitar modified to produce analog organ sounds) and bass through Moog foot pedals, Katrina Ford singing, and David Bergander on drums. And while TVOTR plays luxuriant, expansive space rock, Celebration’s fire-walking postpunk maintains a tight, terse focus, anxiously tromping locked grooves that are occasionally pocked by a solo or a shriek. But still, when you cue up The Modern Tribe it instantly brings to mind one band, and it’s not Celebration. Thanks to Sitek’s work as producer, a constellation of TVOTR’s signature sounds rules the record: the midrange muddle of the production (a sweet swamp of which Sitek is currently liege lord), the womby bong-hit reverb, the wind chimes, the horn section borrowed from Antibalas. And to drive the last nail in, every single member of TV on the Radio puts in a guest appearance.
Of course, there aren’t any women in TVOTR, which puts Ford—previously Antanaitas’s musical partner in Jaks and Love Life—in a good position to assert herself in the face of this pervasive influence. She’s long been a bit of an icon in the microscene where cool goth and posthardcore intersect, and over the past decade she’s expanded her range record by record, coming into full command of her strange and fabulous voice. On The Modern Tribe she sounds like a cross between a 1,000-year-old junkie and a witch you’d like to fuck. Her voice sweeps between extremes, from wispy and delicate to forceful and harsh, but it’s swabbed of all tenderness—even though many of her lyrics are run-of-the-mill romantic barf, she’s abandoned the torchy style of her earlier records. Usually when multiple songs on an album talk about “hearts” you can assume you’re listening to music made by and for teenagers, but here there’s at least one such tune—“Tame the Savage,” with its chorus about the “savage hearts of men”—that might be about the environmental apocalypse foretold by Al Gore, which would make it forgivable. On “Pony” Ford gasps in breathless petit mort staccato, then calls upon the spirit of “White Horse” by Laid Back, asking “Can your pony ride?” The word ride comes out “rhiiiy-duh,” and she lands hard on the h—giddyup, indeed. Her spooky voice is what separates Celebration from all the other bands out there—no other singer can hold a candelabra to that ghost-girl yawp.
On Celebration’s MySpace page they’ve compiled an epic list of the mystical shit they claim influenced their record—they prop “panther people” and “crystal geode worlds,” but there’s no mention of Sitek, who’s inarguably as big a presence as the band itself. (More than just a behind-the-boards Svengali, he also hooked the band up with 4AD.) I’m not trying to say that Celebration are coattail riders, or that The Modern Tribe is a bad record—it’s just awfully hard to judge it on its own merits when so many of its merits are actually TV on the Radio’s.
Dragons of Zynth, a quartet from Brooklyn by way of Cleveland, are the other main group under Sitek’s wing right now. Coronation Thieves, their September debut, was coproduced by him—with help from the band, a promising sign—and likewise features appearances by TVOTR’s entire lineup and the Antibalas horn section. D.O.Z. actually do sound like TVOTR from time to time—they play a sort of dubby, psychedelic skate rock—but then only the barest similarities are required for their big-brother band to get credit. Just like all “girl groups” get compared to other all-girl bands regardless of aesthetic, all black rockers are presumed to have something in common with one another. Even in this late century, a band composed entirely of African-Americans is seen as near mythical, the Pegasus of indie rock. The good news is that Coronation Thieves really is exceptional—it slips out of TVOTR’s shadow and ups the ante.
Dragons of Zynth, in finding their footing, try out a whole slew of ideas, borrowing from all over and applying those influences liberally and evenhandedly. They nick not just from TVOTR but from Black Flag, dub, Gil Scott-Heron, Afrika Bambaataa and John Lydon’s “World Destruction,” the Chili Peppers’ Uplift Mofo Party Plan, and P-Funk at their most lucid and intergalactic. “Breaker” switches from rapid-fire skate punk to verses that combine air-traffic control chatter, solitary tom drops, and compressed, crackling guitar. Singer has a saccharine/sour falsetto and New York problems—on “Anna Mae” he sings about being “in love with a rich girl.” His soulful voice has an acrid edge, and when he flips from a feminine coo to an unapologetic snarl, it’s really fucking satisfying.
The album’s best song, “Rockin Star,” is the equivalent of a palace coup: D.O.Z. beat TV on the Radio at their own game. They take the sound—the rhythms, the dynamics, the entire lot—and drive it all hard toward Armageddon. Amid hallucinatory, whippetized deep-space fuzz and a screwed beat-box sample, layers of vocals dart in and out of the mix, buzzing like mosquitoes— sounds like he’s come untangled from the world, like he’s floating untethered in some carnal but ethereal dimension. The song settles down in its quietest place, then takes a three-note step into a monster swell of distorted guitar that makes My Bloody Valentine sound puny and unimaginative. Buried in the scuzz are streetlight buzz, the cries of a baby, a meandering sweet-funk strum that might’ve come from an old Little Beaver record, animalistic scratching and baying, and extreme noise terror. With that, Dragons of Zynth silence all doubts: they’ve got too much fuck-you-heroes in them to sit under anyone’s wing for long. 
Celebration, Kill Me Tomorrow (see the List), Aleks & the DrummerFri 11/23, 10 PM, Empty Bottle, 1035 N. Western, 773-276-3600 or 866-468-3401, $8.
For more on music, see our blogs Crickets and Post No Bills at chicagoreader.com.
Send a letter to the editor.
From the Reader blogs Crickets Miles Raymer: LeRoy Bach's Duels and Duets series, every Thursday at the Rainbo Wednesday at 8:02 pm
|
Flag as inappropriate
liz at 5:32 AM on 11/22/2007
I have a very strong feeling, that
a. Jessica Hopper never saw Celebration live
b. Jessica Hopper never saw the dragons of zynth live.
c. saw a good opportunity to showcase her tough-cookie potential by writing about a buzz-laden band coming through town.
c. spent much time rubbing her palms together vigorously while over-studying the liner notes in the CD sleeve and spent much less time really listening to the music.
d. was motivated more by gossip and shock value over integrity.
This article was (almost disrespectfully so) over-intellectualizing the end product of Celebration's album by obsessively fixating on the details of the ingredients.
There are 1000's of garage rock boy bands, that either don't stand out enough to be put under the microscope, or escape criticism despite their obviously derivative (and often, so what if...) sound just because they are "good", or we're so used to that sound. Come 3 highly original bands, that are good friends with each other, clearly collaborate on each others' albums with full disclosure, and all of a sudden judgement falls in regards to who influences who and who is under who's wing and who is "fuck you hero" enough to escape the "pervasive influence" and who isn't. This article was monstrously ridiculous. Of all the derivative stuff out there, all the highly unoriginal standard familiar pop music, good and bad, it sure is disappointing when a music critic decides to pick on a band that rises above the standard and is a true original. And happens to be close friends with and collaborate with a more famous band, which IS a mixed blessing, that is, if Jessica Hopper is reviewing your album and can't see past the juicy gossip.
"But still, when you cue up the Modern Tribe it instantly brings to mind one band, and it's not Celebration". So Celebration sounds more like TV on the Radio than Celebration? Huh? She goes on to name of some common production aesthetics, wind chimes, and horns, as well as TVOTR members. Again, when something, such as a production technique, is not original enough to stand out, it goes unnoticed and doesn't get the shit that Celebration is getting, having chosen to work with an artist (producer, and their good friend!) who yes, does have a style, and an impressive, creative approach that IS recognizable. And this is a BAD thing? He should keep it to himself? To say that the band sounds more like TVOTR is an unfounded insult for which the right-on compliments to Katrina's voice just don't make up for. The production may be similar, but each band is CLEARLY doing their own thing musically. Any possible similarities are natural, given that these guys grow up together with each others' music and company. Any dummy who would attend both shows back to back would hardly draw a comparison based on the actual music. If they read the sleeves of who is involved, making note of both bands using windchimes, and compiling a list of other minor overlaps, if the "data" is more significant than the quality of the creation, then yes, they are "similar". But to a listening mind, it's a totally different reality. Their sound is so organ-driven, it's completely different. It is sometimes feminine, and I mean that in a powerful way if it's ok to say feminine and mean that, the drums are quite unique of TVOTR's, etc. Katrina's entirely unique vocal style and tone,(here laden with compliments only to be summarized as "swabbed of all tenderness") as well as her tribal drum playing, the multi-instrumentalist's take on the organ, and the drummer, make the band way more different than tvotr than some dumb windchimes and shared production details (yeah, duh, same producer) make them alike. Jessica Hopper rips apart Katrina's lyrics for being "romantic barf", and "forgives" another song with a political motive. Thank heavens Katrina is not as self-conscious as the writer as to dis on love but hero a political message, which in a hip self-conscious scene, is "safer", and therefore easier of a topic to tackle than love or happiness-- if your motive is to remain "cool" and dodge criticism by too-cool writers scared of being judged themselves (?)
I would not trust a future review by Jessica Hopper as she seems to be more of a writer of words than a feeler of sounds. It's a shame that this disappointing article that has so many far-fetched stretches was not questioned by the editor. Opinions are one thing as far as what is liked and what isn't, but to suck all originality credit from an inventive band just because they're friends with a great and well-known band, and to make wild claims that they sound so much like them, just lacks integrity. I hope the scattered compliments that even this writer could not deny them will help draw people to their show to come and see for themselves how this band sounds almost NOTHING like Tv on the Radio! Definitely not close enough to be criticized for it and all of their originality overlooked. I'd like to know what other TV on the Radio fans think after going to the show.
Flag as inappropriate
aleks at 1:13 PM on 11/22/2007
I took this kind of personally. It may show up as I write.
I agree with the earlier comment. It does seem like it's more about having something clever (yet recycled) to say than about Celebration's music. The music is completely different than TV on the Radio and this whole article is more than just someone's opinion, it is so off that it just seems unfair. It is sad that such a great band would not be credited for their originality and the opposite argument would be made.
"the midrange muddle of the production, (a sweet swamp of which Sitek is currently liege lord), the womby bong-hit reverb, the wind chimes, the horn section borrowed from Antibalas. And to drive the last nail in, every single member of TV on the Radio puts in a guest appearance".
What I find ironic is that Dragons of Zynth have all of the above qualities, but somehow they were exempt from attacks on their originality while Celebration got the snub. On top of it, they'd be the likely candidates for further comparison to TVOTR because their instrumental makeup IS similar, and they are African American male musicians. But of course that would be ignorant for Jessica Hopper to give them shit for it.
So what this seems like to me is the typical uphill climb that many female musicians have to take. "she's only as good as her producer, that's the producer's signature, it's because she worked with so and so, sounds just like so and so ". (you hear this even about Bjork, etc ) This must be acknowledged. For her and her band to be brushed off as sounding too much like TV on the Radio is absurd. Because Katrina Ford is such an underground icon and strong female vocal presence in the band's sound, the strong presence of Sean's "guitorgan", and the beats being inherently different than tvotr's, the comparison boils down to the collaborators and Dave Sitek's production style. At the same time, his production style and his band are loved and lauded by the writer, so why is it a bad artistic decision to have them contribute? Celebration is having their hard work and originality pulled from under their feet for making a wise decision. It's a clear contradiction. On top of it, the album is called "modern tribe" to reflect this friendship they have and honor the collaboration. Still, you barely hear the backup vocals of the tvotr's members and the windchimes and all are there to support something that is exceptionally unique in itself and holds its own.
Being a female musician, I just found this whole review annoying. Would a male ever be criticized for being "swabbed of all tenderness?". And then criticized for writing "romantic barf". Yet another contradiction. Who is she expected to be by the writer? Please define this standard she is expected to fulfill? These words are just floating around aimlessly interrupting each other and filling space with no clear purpose.
I will be recording with Dave Sitek this December. If he puts some horns on a song, or plays guitar on something, GREAT!! He can be a third band member for all I care, I trust him. He's an artist I like. If David Bowie wants to stop by and fart in the microphone, splendid! Be happy for me. And if a year's worth of writing my music and Deric's unique style get overshadowed by Dave's wing, it is only because someone is blowing that wing out of proportion and fixating on it a little too much. Not looking beneath that surface, which may be in the form of a great "wing" to his fan. If you ask Celebration no one ever rolled out a red carpet for them. They work their asses off and are anything but new. Don't condemn them for their associations and collaborators, especially if they are pretty great artists you admittedly love.
Maybe to dodge a similar type of review I should build my own studio, record my own crap production of my songs, and remain ignored. Either that, or not dare criticize the very writers I'm better off kissing up to. Oops. Sorry!!!! :) I guess I'm doomed...
At least I get to open for Celebration again. Yes!!
Flag as inappropriate
T.J. at 12:00 PM on 11/23/2007
Katrina Ford has been working with TV on the Radio for years. You could say she influenced them, in fact, considering her voice can be heard all over the background of "Staring at the Sun" (and in the video), their signature song.
Flag as inappropriate
emilie at 12:54 PM on 11/23/2007
Damn, theres a little fight going on up in here. seems like liz (presumably liz armstrong?) has it in for Ms. Hopper. But I have to agree with both Liz and Aleks. Why is it that we women are so harsh and quick to nit pick and judge eachother over silly issues like those mentioned above? I havent heard the artist in question, but I hate that women in rock and roll (or art for that matter) are so easily discredited for the hard work they do. What they bring to the musical collaboration is reduced and cliched, with the "feminine" aspect as weak, instead of unique and powerful. Or does it have to be spelled out and obnoxiously, and self-righteously political to have any resonance or substance?
Flag as inappropriate
Jessica Hopper at 1:20 PM on 11/23/2007
I'm sorry that you both seem to think I am being a. sexist and b. accomodating to DOZ because to criticize them would be racist. I think you both missed the point.
Flag as inappropriate
Jessica Hopper at 2:01 PM on 11/23/2007
I addressed some of these comments further on my blog. here.
Flag as inappropriate
Monika at 2:33 PM on 11/23/2007
Im caught in the middle of all these respected smart and influencial ladies of this town, what should I say? What if that article was about my cousin ( aleks)or me.. who would jump on the oppertunity to record with someone like Dave at any time? However "producing" I would question, since its MY music.
So what is the point? does Celebration sound like tv on the radio ? can they hold up their own without Dave?... I will look forward to seeing tonight, like I saw before and it seemed that they did their own thing. Is Dave responsible for their sound style and success? Is their record bad because of such collaboration?
..what would Katrina say? and what would jesus do? and just how much for that doggie in the window?
and yes if David Bowie wanted to fart on my microphone,he could be my guest as well..so yes from a hungry muscians point of view ..If i had the resources I would want someone of trendy and trustfull name to help me out in the art of recording .. And when Timberland agrees to do it, then yes my record will sound like his influence. Maybe that is what is at stake. A producer, yes essentailly produces the album, Im not sure how much it applies to indie world vs Hollywood but I imagine its a power that is makes him rich out his talent. Then is it a power and responsibility that is taken away from the band?
maybe that was Jessica's point?
But is that really Clear with Celebration ...maybe that what Aleks point?
That doggie in the window is expensive...is my point.
Flag as inappropriate
Jelly at 2:37 PM on 11/23/2007
Yeah, cuz there's only one person named Liz who lives in Chicago. Good one.
I think people just like to leave comments as an attempt to flap their little wings against the air in any way they can. There is no one valid argument to be found in what I've read in the comments above. People be hatin. Go eat some leftovers, or better yet ... get off yr asses and write a review of something your damn selves.
Flag as inappropriate
aleks at 3:53 PM on 11/23/2007
I did get off my ass and write a review of the review, actually at my risk, as as an artist you're probably better off not stepping on writers' toes. I'm not calling Jessica a sexist, and I never implied it would be racist not to like Dragons of Zynth. (I, btw, think they definitely deserve all the compliments). If I'm flapping my wings, so are you. :) There's a comments section for comments.
"it’s just awfully hard to judge it on its own merits when so many of its merits are actually TV on the Radio’s". After a string of great descriptions : "But still, when you cue up The Modern Tribe it instantly brings to mind one band, and it’s not Celebration."
My gripe was with giving TV on the Radio credit for Celebration's work. Based on production garnishes and backup-vocals. That is overlooking alot, ehem, the songwriting?? The playing styles, the lead vocals. How can you give TV on the Radio most of the credit for Celebration's music? It just doesn't make any sense, when the songwriting is so different. There will be some sound influences, because they intentionally collaborate and share a producer.
As far as producer/vs engineer : If a producer creates or changes you, that is one thing. If you write the songs, and he garnishes their sound, and it's your artistic decision to invite his artistic skills (definitely the case here), people have to get over the "celebrity" and who's who and give the band credit for their songwriting. If they take it away, it's an insult to their hard work and vision. And this does happen more to female artists/scientists, etc.. So I was sad to read such lines as quoted above by Jessica, even if had nothing to do with male/female in this case. Maybe it WAS more artist/producer. And I'm standing up for the artist. As far working with "celebrities", it can be a bonus or a curse. This scene can judge you for not being d.i.y. and local and genuine and secret enough.
Flag as inappropriate
Jessica Hopper at 4:07 PM on 11/23/2007
Are you making you record with Dave Sitek in hopes that the music critics who listen "get over" his celebrity and sound?
Flag as inappropriate
aleks at 5:06 PM on 11/23/2007
Yes, not fixate on whatever celebrity status he has. and as far as sound, not get over, but give it credit and get past it enough to acknowledge the band. And see the songwriter as an individual not a product----of influence, of a producer, of another band, which is is even more of a stretch. i don't see him as a celebrity, i'm not good at celebrities. i have no idea and i don't care about that. if status happens to help, it's likely it will hurt as well, as there are alot of too-cool judgemental people. I respect his experimental approach to recording, I think he has great ideas, and will be fun to hang out with while working. I relate to other musicians he's worked with, I carefully listened to all kinds of records and was very excited to have found what would work best with our sound. The motivation was who can bring out the most drama and power and emotion and make the drums sound thunderous (as in fever to tell, not so much like modern tribe) and understand what we do. Also, sick of the burden of being the only songwriter, who can possibly have some great input and add something. I liked that it was far from home, where I can focus on the recording and not my invoices, my taxes, doing my laundry. Anything else is extraneous, some may prove to be bonuses, some risks. It's just an EP. It's likely to not get much attention anyway just because that's all it is. It's affordable, it's for our fun, to get us out there. But i'd be pretty insulted if most of the credit was kicked over to "the producer". They're my songs. It's our sound. "Our" can include Dave Sitek.
Flag as inappropriate
Emilie at 6:34 PM on 11/23/2007
Jelly,
I estimate the identity of the author because of her distinct writing style, and the fact that the liz a. used to write for the reader, and this would be a type of music she would be into.
I was just throwing it out there. Of course, all this is pretty irrelevant to the issue at hand. I don't think any of the ladies above be hatin'. If there is a space below for comments, people will take advantage of it. There is nothing wrong with healthy artistic debate. I found what everyone had to say interesting and stimulating. Furthermore, women like Aleks (and I for that matter, because I am a female musician) can't help but take these kinds of things personally. Music is our livelihood, and its damn hard to shut me on this topic!
You took the time to write a comment, so obviously you were inspired, too.
Flag as inappropriate
Jelly at 6:55 PM on 11/23/2007
It would have been in better taste to send an email with such a lengthy comment. Right? It bothers me that forums such as a comments section are often just used for personal attacks and mud slinging. Let's just all be careful in not throwing out names and getting too into something where the whole damn world can see it. Yes, I know that's what this sectio is for, but it's tacky. Send an email.
Flag as inappropriate
Emilie at 7:09 PM on 11/23/2007
I didn't call you any names or personally attack you. I am just speaking my mind on something that interests me. Nothin tacky about that. How am I going to know your email address?
Get a grip. This is the last I write. Shit is getting petty.
Flag as inappropriate
jelly at 8:25 PM on 11/23/2007
Emilie,
Your response to that was very strange. I wasn't talking about myself. I was trying to say that leaving lengthy comments in a public forum is tacky. Reading comprehension, however, is very valuable.
Flag as inappropriate
Jessica Hopper at 8:54 PM on 11/23/2007
A few things--
1. That first commenter is not Liz Armstrong, I can guarantee you that.
2. Why would any female musician take personally my criticism of the Celebration record? My crit is largely of Sitek, and secondly of the band--who I think are buried under a sound that is not theirs. The Chicago Reader is not Venus magazine--a woman making art does not make it above criticism-- and as a feminist, it really bums me out that it's seen as traitorous to hold all bands to the exact same standard. To do so shows that I take Katrina and Celebration seriously, wouldn't it?
Flag as inappropriate
Harry Bailly at 9:59 PM on 11/23/2007
Liz Armstrong would never listen to any of these "bands". I promise.
Flag as inappropriate
liz armstrong at 2:52 AM on 11/24/2007
harry--
yes I would, and I dig 'em all! I went to the show and danced and danced. The hard thing: often we write based on recordings *or* seeing one live show. I wrote a kinda mean thing about Kill Me Tomorrow based on some shit-ass internet recordings, but live they were really vibrant in this low-thud/reptile brain way. Repetition/drone is so much better in your face. I'm saying that what got printed made me feel bad, like I didn't do the band justice, and I'm not ashamed to say I made a bit of a mistake. Jessica, I didn't see you there tonight--my eyes were glued to the stage the entire time--but if you were I bet you'd write something different after the fact.
Rest: it wasn't me until now.
Plus, comments are awesome! Whether or not anyone agrees with Jessica, obviously she wrote a great story if y'alls are fighting over it. She started a conversation, and you are continuing it. No beef for processing, Jelly, though it's nice to see you sticking up for Jessica all loyal 'n' stuff...it's a (good) writer's dream to have people arguing, even if it does sting a smidge.
Flag as inappropriate
burlap at 11:00 AM on 11/24/2007
"Plus, comments are awesome! Whether or not anyone agrees with Jessica, obviously she wrote a great story if y'alls are fighting over it."
Yes, anything anyone ever wrote that got people angry is obviously great.
Flag as inappropriate
Lance at 12:15 PM on 11/24/2007
I think what that other person was trying to say, in terms of comments, is that there seems to be a lot of personal dialogue here. Is anyone actually talking about the article now?
Flag as inappropriate
Tongue-biter at 3:34 PM on 11/24/2007
There are so many things that I'd like to bring up re: Aleks et al's comments, but the abbreviated version goes something like this:
In the last year, and over the course of her career, Hopper's written (well) about almost every genre that Reckless Records has in stock. In that light, if you squint, so to speak, all of these bands (YYY's, who I love, included) sound like variations on the same thing. Subjectively, that might be great fun for the non-casual, microcosm-obsessed hipster in all of us, but objectively? The Celebration record sure sounds more like TVOTR than it does Beyonce, The Beatles, BT, or Tuvan throat singing. To think otherwise, and ignore the obvious effect that Sitek's production has on a band (good or bad), is foolish. Give Hopper some credit for seeing the broad view.
Also, what does a live show have to do with a record? Hopper can, and should, review records on their own merits, regardless of what a band can or can't do live. Any self-respecting artist that plays shows AND makes records should appreciate that. Flip the coin here: it sure feels unfair when a critic can't look past one bad show or one crap record when reviewing someone's newest amazing record/last awesome show.
Flag as inappropriate
Harry Bailly at 10:52 PM on 11/24/2007
Misty Martinez only visits me in my dreams now.
:-(
Flag as inappropriate
aleks at 5:42 AM on 11/25/2007
Tongue biter: Jessica's tvotr/celebration observations have been made by many writers. She's talented with words, yes she described them well. I mentioned they are there but natural and healthy, due to their friendship, mutual collaboration, shared producer, etc... It's one thing to make some comparisons, perfectly valid. But based on backup vocals, horns, chimes, and production garnishes, can Celebration really be dismissed/insulted for being too derivative of tvotr when the songwriting, vocals, beats, dominant instruments, are totally different? It's a very narrow view, not a broad one, to overlook all those things and displace the credit for the overall style to not only the producer, but even his band-- an even farther stretch--it's insulting.
Jessica: Why an artist would take it personally: because we can relate to each other.
Another artist can have a reaction to you labeling Katrina's lyrics "romantic barf" without further elaborating on why it is barf (just because it's romantic?) Many men and women write about love, not just about global warming or whatever else you consider to be cool enough for school. You can say whatever you want, but yes people may take it personally, and maybe you can consider backing up your statements with something. Even opinions should be explained to some degree so we at least get where you're coming from. If you throw around clever one-liners and judgements without supporting them.. well... it may be an entertaining fun read for some but..
people are missing the point.
if i missed the point, and the point was : your crit was of Sitek, there was no criticism of Sitek in the review. No one can be blamed for missing the point if it wasn't made. In fact, the Sitek aspects were the "merits"-- you seemed to like them. Celebration was the one that got the crit (and the burn) for recruiting those merits.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but this review is so full of contradictions.
Your review isn't fair not because you criticized a woman's music, it is unfair because you credited the music to a producer that contributed. A familiar, yet hurtful thing to do, if a band/performer is actually quite original and writes their OWN music. On top of it is a really unique artist and doesn't seem to parrot a common sound
. you'd HOPE these kinds of bands would be the ones to GET some credit
---It was also not fair, that you applied the tvotr similarities to both reviewed bands, yet only Celebration got shamed for it. I had a valid question : why the double standard?
---Dave Sitek : how dare you copy yourself? :)
I realize It's complicated when a producer is also a member of another band, but a good writer should realize this too, and consider these nuances.
--------------
any more and i'll get really redundant so i'm done commenting.
no hard feelings, i'm just outspoken when something angers me. to speak my mind makes me feel better. i appreciate jessica's writing style. this one just, well, eh.. yeah. it's all been said
Flag as inappropriate
AIM on the Internet at 8:32 AM on 11/25/2007
"...where I can focus on the recording and not my invoices, my taxes, doing my laundry."
DAMN! Full-service Sitek. NOW TUNDE, HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU, NO STARCH! Best reason ever given for picking a "producer." That would explain why all of these bands have a similar "look" as well...
Flag as inappropriate
Khalea at 12:05 PM on 11/25/2007
You know, a writer is only given so many words in which tackle everything they need to deal with in a review. It's not really their responsibility to spoon feed every little nuance to you.
Also .... this quote here from Aleks:
"not just about global warming or whatever else you consider to be cool enough for school."
Seriously?? You like, typed that out and were pleased with it? This is all getting to be really low and petty.
Flag as inappropriate
T.J. at 12:46 PM on 11/25/2007
Everyone on this thread is ignorant and self-aggrandizing in descending order from the beginning, starting with the writer of this review. You should all get over yourselves.
Flag as inappropriate
aleks at 3:32 PM on 11/25/2007
i take the dumb cool for school comment back, i'll apologize for any judgements or overkill. i admit, it was a little personal, came from my fear of not being judged on my own merits, as i'm recording with the same person who adds something, (in many opinions, pretty inventive and brilliant touches). also from a feminist perspective. i didn't mean to misjudge jessica, i don't think she's sexist. i guess she thinks those touches buried the band, i feel they help bring them out, or at most, garnish them. they're opinions. and we're all entitled. i was at the show, it didn't sound much different than the recording--without sitek. so i still feel the same about giving celebration credit for their sound both live and on the record, but sorry if i was petty at points, really didn't mean to be. that is stupid.
Flag as inappropriate
fullscale008 at 6:00 PM on 11/25/2007
dudes, they embrace the Dionysian mysteries. Sayin'.
Flag as inappropriate
"Crusty" at 6:32 AM on 11/26/2007
Having suffered a small dose of Jessica's vitriol in ninth grade (somewhat deservedly so), it is with mixed emotions that i say, "kudos to Jessica." While I am nominally familiar with TVOTR (and oblivious to the other talent mentioned), her review:
1) made me want to go see the show (but I was, alas, home for turkey-laden celebrations)
and
2) obviously pissed some people off...a hallmark of good criticism.
A note to artists who are offended by critics...stop reading them. Or go after them with a song. Then again, the tet-a-tet makes for some interesting reading. I think Theodore Adorno might be proud, but I'm not sure...I really just wanted to name-drop Theodore Adorno.
Jessica, I can't really speak to your criticism per se, but your prose is quite rich. Keep up the good work. PS...just curious...Are you still friends with JC?
Flag as inappropriate
"crusty" at 7:00 AM on 11/26/2007
T.J., I have long found that we dislike in others that which we dislike in ourselves.
Flag as inappropriate
Yt at 9:56 AM on 11/26/2007
This review with the comments has been one of the best things I have seen in the Reader in weeks. (I love the gossip about the scene from the people who play a part in it. Monika, Aleks, etc…even Crusty (I am pretty sure I know who you are.)) This was a great way to kill 25 minutes at work on the Monday following the T-giving holiday.
I played with D.O.Z. and Awesome Color in Brooklyn about 2 years ago. D.O.Z. was average at best (at that time). Awesome Color was clearly the best band on that evening. It’s pretty funny to hear about D.O.Z. again after thinking they dropped off the face of the earth.
Let’s face it the music industry is a dirty, its-who-you-know kind of business. Anyone that has played out and recorded for any length of time knows that. Bands have always coveted certain producers for their identifiable sounds or their ability to get attention. Think about this, Neil Diamond is doing his new record with Rick Ruben as producer.
Trying to make a living as a ‘rock and roll’ musician is a tough endeavor. By no means do I personally endorse doing ‘whatever it takes’, but I can certainly understand the motivation that drives some people to make compromised decisions. Mark Stewart had it right along time ago, "We are all prostitutes, and everyone has their price."
Flag as inappropriate
Jelly at 10:08 AM on 11/26/2007
This is EXACTLY what I was talking about. The insanity of the internet - where now people are talking about 9th grade memories and asking personal questions. Ugh. It makes me sick to my stomach.
Learn to shut some doors. Why grandstand?
Flag as inappropriate
Yt at 10:54 AM on 11/26/2007
Insanity?? This shit is great! If its making you sick don't read it. The fact that people want to discuss thier 9th grade memories on a comment section of a online reader article and such is the least of what makes me sick about the Chicago scene.
Jelly, its so awesome that you are yelling at the folks posting comments.
We need a long, hard, cold winter to really cheer some people up around here.
Flag as inappropriate
C-Note at 11:37 AM on 11/26/2007
I just want someone to tell me what, if anything, the phrase 'punishingly white' means.
Flag as inappropriate
Yt at 2:52 PM on 11/26/2007
Good question. I understand the point that Hopper is getting at in that sentence but the phrase 'punishingly white' is not clearly defined. It would seem this is the type of phrase used to catch one's attention. I don't think nitpicking Hopper over poor word choice is necessary at this point.
Flag as inappropriate
d.u.h. at 2:52 PM on 11/26/2007
motivation #1: dave sitek is a fucking awesome producer that undeniably gets alot of praise. i'm sure that many people would like to work with him and few get to.
Yt, don't you agree it's only a compromised decision if
a. the production sounds BAD
b. it's not what you want in a sound, and you're doing it for the name
they got in trouble for their production being DISTINCT. and traceable to another band (by way of the same producer) that uses the same production elements.
Jessica never said the production was bad.
Flag as inappropriate
YT at 3:22 PM on 11/26/2007
In all reality the band members are the only ones who know if they are compromised or not.
(BTW -- I was not condemning any of the bands for using a particular producer, but you are crazy to think that the timing of using a particular producer isn’t relevant. But I agree with your points (A and B).)
In essence Hopper’s comments are not flattering even though she is not claiming the production value itself is bad. However, your point is duly noted.
Flag as inappropriate
C-Note at 3:49 PM on 11/26/2007
I don't think it's 'nitpicking' to criticize a writer over word choice.
I don't understand the point that is being made. Imagine a criticism of hip hop for its 'punishing blackness.' What am I supposed to derive from Hopper's assertion? That indie rock (which means what, exactly?) needs a diversity committee? An affirmative action plan? Should any music ultimately derived from an African-American origin be required to reflect a certain parts per thousand of black musicians with each new census? Am I supposed to look around the next time I'm at the Bottle and feel self-conscious at the uniformity of the crowd?
Apologies for the digression.
Flag as inappropriate
Yt at 5:03 PM on 11/26/2007
No apologies necessary. Please feel free to digress. It’s a lot more interesting.
I don't think that there needs to be an affirmative action plan for indie rock. However, your idea of a diversity committee is hilarious. A funny topic for another forum would be: who would be on the Chicago Indie Rock Diversity Committee?
I will go out on a limb and guess (or at least what I discerned from her writing) that Hopper was trying to say that indie rockers are mostly white and to assume that TVOTR only influences black indie rockers is to do a disservice to TVOTR’s talent. I assumed that this is what she was trying to say.
However, maybe I am way off base.
Flag as inappropriate
Jessica Hopper at 7:09 PM on 11/26/2007
RE:"punishingly white"
I mean it as it reads, that indie rock, in being a predominantly white subculture is often oppressively so. It's homogeny (white and male) is an insulating detriment to it's own scene/fans/potential fans, symptomatic of the patriarchal culture in which it is fostered.
For an expanded bit on this topic--- http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/musical/2007/10/22/071022crmu_music_frerejones Sasha Frere Jones' article from the New Yorker about whiteness and indie rock from a few weeks back.
I don't think indie rock needs a diversity committee, but everything, indie rock included, I think benefits from diversity. Duh.
I guess how punishing whiteness is or is not for you depends on how involved you are, how you participate in music, and how you fit in the hierarchy around it.
Basically, thats what I meant.
Flag as inappropriate
D. at 8:31 PM on 11/26/2007
I tried to get to the article but the address didn't work. I wonder though if it that is an outsider's assumption or if it really is the case, that african-american musicians feel the "indie" scene to be oppressive towards them. Anyone out there willing to volunteer their experience? I would hope that the indie music scene tends not to be racist unlike some other scenes. Personally, as a music fan I feel that if anything it may help you stand out among a thousand bands because there's that immediate something different. Then if you're good, it may even help your exposure? Women however, are pretty common in the scene, they just tend to get careful, lukewarm reviews for some reason or get nitpicked more. My girlfriend recently called it to my attention and once aware I think I find it to be true. They get judged on more: appearance, sex appeal, originality, being too feminine too sweet vs. too butch or not hot and fiery enough, their lyrics being girly, a lot of times focus is on the producer and we're suspicious of who did what, whereas we're often unaware of who produced most male bands' albums. or if we know, we assume the band dudes did most of the work and don't think twice.
Flag as inappropriate
caroline whitmore at 9:21 PM on 11/26/2007
the best part of this whole thing so far is the guy who recently found out about double standards for women musicians explaining sexism to jessica hopper. touche.
Flag as inappropriate
D. at 1:34 AM on 11/27/2007
I wasn't explaining anything to Jessica Hopper. Maybe to other guys that take it for granted? So come on, forgive me, obviously I know sexism exists but never really paid attention to it in the music scene until recently. I just wasn't really aware. What's wrong with that?
Flag as inappropriate
Jelly at 8:42 AM on 11/27/2007
Of all the outlets MOST likely to have a thick vein of sexism, it's any and every music scene. Girls are supposed to be cute and fashionable, and just pose ever so behind their instruments. I can name off about 500 rocks mags featuring cover pics of mega ugz dudes, God help us if it was a less than "cute" girl on that cover.
Flag as inappropriate
jhopz sux at 5:26 PM on 12/6/2007
It's always personal with this lady--she has a colorful, cough, history of slamming female musicians. Maybe because she never made it as one.
Flag as inappropriate
Alex Fox at 2:13 PM on 4/17/2008
I just stumbled across this article, rather after the fact. As I read it, I became increasingly irritated by the tone of the piece. Then I saw the slew of responses! Really there's nothing left to say, except that I couldn't agree more with most everything that has been said. Liz, you're spot on. I mean, I'd be so unimpressed if I was a member of Celebration - "camped out at the base of cookie mountain"! Save us from uninspired, trite journalism.
Flag as inappropriate
andre at 2:17 PM on 4/19/2008
This is a very interesting article. Usually critics would state that Dragons of Zynth sound like TV on the Radio, because they are both African American. Being African-American, it is nice to see that there is Afro-Americans in the indie scene, not because they are 'black', but because they bring alot of soul and other Afro-cultural aspects to the trade. Think about it. TV on the Radio, puts in gospel, could you name another band that does this and doesn't sound like a complete ripoff? Diversity does make the scene alot stronger. Indie scene shouldn't be restrictive because it is essentially 'indie'. Is it oppressive to the Afro-American musical experience? Well ask your self that. Would you openly reject an Afro-American artist who is in the indie scene because he's 'black'. Alot of the quality in rock has been lost because it has shunned diversity , I think. The 70s had some of the best rock, because everyone was included in the game. Women , men, everyone let's just love the flippin music, and stop judging each other based on same producers and garbage like that. It's obvious this band does not sound exactly like TV on the Radio, though they do heavily influence each other, which is only natural if your f..ucking friends. Not 'fuck' buddies lol.
Add a comment