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Re: “Will two too many Kochs spoil the Tribune?

@Same philosophy:

Your comment is absurd, malicious, and false. The Trib is not a " right wing reactionary" newspaper. One wonders what you consider an entirely decent and legitimate conservative newspaper? Probably Pravda.

Posted by ernie1241 on 05/12/2013 at 3:07 PM

Re: “Will two too many Kochs spoil the Tribune?


Perhaps you at least can agree with one basic principle of truth-finding -- namely, that due diligence requires independent research rather than just accepting at face-value whatever some public figure or organization presents in their self-serving statements or press releases??

Here are some basic questions which I would like to see Charles Koch answer before I would accept your predicate that he is a genuine libertarian who believes in tolerance and diversity.

1. Charles, do you believe the Birch Society contention that Presidents Carter and Clinton should have been impeached for TREASON?

2. Charles, do you believe the Birch Society contention that...

"A republican form of government or of organization has many attractions and advantages under certain favorable conditions. But under less happy circumstances it lends itself too readily to infiltration, distortion, and disruption" -- and --

as a corollary to that premise, do you believe along with Robert Welch that .

.."democracy, of course, in government or organization, as the Greeks and Romans both found out, as I believe every man in this room clearly recognizes -- democracy is merely a deceptive phrase, a weapon of demagoguery and a perennial fraud."

3. Charles, do you believe, along with the Birch Society, that during the 1950's:

"In the Senate, there are men like Stephen Young of Ohio, and Wayne Morse of Oregon, McNamara of Michigan, and Clifford Case of New Jersey and Hubert Humphrey of Minnesota and Estes Kefauver of Tennessee and John F. Kennedy of Massachusetts, whom it is utter folly to think of as just liberals. Every one of those men is either an actual Communist or so completely a Communist sympathizer or agent that it makes no practical difference..."

4. Charles, do you believe, along with the Birch Society, that:

"For the civil rights movement in the United States... has not been infiltrated by the Communists, as you now frequently hear. It has been deliberately and almost wholly created by the Communists patiently building up to this present stage for more than thirty years.”

5. Charles, do you believe, along with the Birch Society, that:

Martin Luther King Jr. "attended a Communist training school" ??

6. Charles, do you believe, along with the Birch Society, that:

"The history of the socialist movement in the U.S. is one of advocating mandatory public education. Recall that it is the tenth step toward communizing any country outlined by Karl Marx in The Communist Manifesto…The aim of the Conspiracy has always been to break down the old social order and replace it with the anti-God system of socialism. Kindergarten was part of the breakdown of the old social order and it included that indoctrination of children at an ever-younger age away from their parents."

7. Charles, do you believe, along with the Birch Society, that the following individuals are a representative sample of individuals who were, or are, either Communists, Communist sympathizers, or Communist "agents" who planned to destroy our country and bring us into a one-world socialist dictatorship?

a. President Harry Truman
b. President Dwight D. Eisenhower
c. General George C. Marshall
d. Allen Dulles (CIA Director)
e. John Foster Dulles (Secretary of State)
f. U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren
g. Henry Kissinger (Secretary of State)
h. Governor Nelson Rockefeller (NY)
i. Governor Edmund G. Brown (CA)
j. Senator Hubert Humphrey (MN -- and later Vice President)
k. Senator Estes Kefauver (TN)
l. Governor Orval Faubus (AR)
j. Senator John Kerry (now Secretary of State)
k. President Charles DeGaulle (France)

8. Charles, do you believe, along with the Birch Society, that the liberal organization, Americans For Democratic Action

... "whether a lot of its members know it or not, is the same as an arm of the Communist Party. Its weight can be thrown, and is thrown, time after time, with never an exception, in support of Communist objectives."

9. Charles, do you believe, along with the Birch Society, that the NAACP, Congress of Racial Equality, National Urban League, American Civil Liberties Union, and other national civil rights and civil liberties organizations are all "Communist fronts"?

If Charles would answer these nine questions --- we could arrive at a fact-based judgment concerning his actual values and beliefs and then measure them against the historical record regarding what American libertarian organizations and publications believe.

2 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by ernie1241 on 05/03/2013 at 5:27 PM

Re: “Will two too many Kochs spoil the Tribune?


Because of your arrogant disdain, you continue to miss my point Ronald. You ridicule me for not immediately accepting your contention that Charles Koch is a sincere libertarian. You probably also believe the content of every press release which the JBS has released about itself.

My point, Ronald, is that neither you or I truly knows what Charles Koch believes--because he will not answer pertinent questions (see below for more details).

Libertarians generally rejected the Birch Society---along with most mainstream conservatives. For example:

Left and Right: A Journal of Libertarian Thought, Winter 1966, p12 criticized National Review magazine but then agreed with the fundamental National Review premise that:

“…Mr. Robert Welch and the John Birch Society…embarrass the Conservative Movement by accepting its own major premises (such as the bogey of the all-pervasive ‘international Communist conspiracy’) and deduce from it…absurd but consistent conclusions (e.g. Welch on Eisenhower as a dedicated Communist.)”

Other major libertarian journals (such as Reason) also eviscerated JBS arguments.

So one wonders what is it that Charles Koch found so alluring about the John Birch Society?

Here is another point you continue to dismiss, de-value, or ignore:

Robert Welch and senior JBS officials and official JBS publications effusively praised the FBI under J. Edgar Hoover's tenure. It was their contention, in both public statements and in private correspondence (which I have copies of) that Hoover was our nation's most knowledgeable, authoritative, and reliable source of factual information about the communist movement as well as about internal security matters generally -- AND -- in terms of what constituted effective anti-communism.

Consequently, one has to wonder why Birchers can so blithely ignore the indisputable FACT, that both J. Edgar Hoover and senior officials in the FBI's Domestic Intelligence Division routinely characterized JBS beliefs as "extremist", "irrational", "lunatic right", "fanatics" and "irresponsible".

Furthermore, the FBI falsified every major premise of JBS ideology (see my JBS Report for specific chapter and verse and scanned copies of significant FBI internal memos).

Therefore, one still must confront this inevitable question:

Why would someone like Charles Koch or his father, Fred, or all of the JBS National Council members repudiate mainstream conservatives (such as intellectual giants like Russell Kirk) and despise major political activists who helped create and sustain the postwar conservative movement in the U.S.(such as William Buckley Jr. or Sen. Barry Goldwater) --- when those very same individuals effusively praised and endorsed J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI?

I previously cited a comment by Robert Welch in which he claimed that our government was under Communist control and domination. The annual JBS "Scoreboard" issue of its magazine, American Opinion, declared in 1964 that we were "70-90%" under Communist influence and control into all aspects of our society.

By contrast, this was the position of J. Edgar Hoover:

"The Communist Party in this country has attempted to infiltrate and subvert every segment of our society, but its continuing efforts have not achieved success of any substance. Too many self-styled experts on communism, without valid credentials and without any access whatsoever to classified factual data regarding the inner workings of the conspiracy, have engaged in rumor-mongering and hurling false and wholly unsubstantiated allegations against persons whose views differ from their own. This is dangerous business. It is divisive and unintelligent, and makes more difficult the task of the professional investigator." [Hoover statement in February 5, 1962 letter to Mrs. W.R. Brown of Bountiful Utah; also published as letter-to-editor in Tri-Cities Daily newspaper of Sheffield, Alabama on Sunday March 31, 1963. Copy of Hoover letter in FBI HQ file 94-1-369, serial #1676]

SO AGAIN: Whatever libertarian values Charles Koch MIGHT believe in -- it STILL does not explain why he associated himself with a political extremist fringe organization nor do we understand what he ACTUALLY BELIEVES.

Lastly, just FYI, I have attempted 4 times to get a statement from Charles Koch about his JBS membership --- but each time he refused to answer. That speaks VOLUMES!

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Posted by ernie1241 on 05/03/2013 at 4:42 PM

Re: “Will two too many Kochs spoil the Tribune?


Although you may not realize it, your latest comment is quite appropriate -- but in reverse.

It is the John Birch Society which insists that we go back decades to review every "association" or "link" to left-wing and alleged radical groups because that is critically important information. In fact, the JBS published a 4-volume book series entitled "Biographical Dictionary of the Left" which purports to present the "subversive" connections of every American political figure in the 20th century.

If you read contemporary issues of JBS literature such as its monthly JBS Bulletin, the JBS routinely quotes excerpts from articles it originally published 40-50 years ago because it believes everything it published decades ago is errorless and essential to our understanding.

In fact, in 2002, when the JBS published a new edition of Robert Welch's so-called "private letter" [The Politician] which originally was written in 1954 and updated through 1958, the new 2002 edition stated on its back cover that The Politician "exposes that 'conspiracy of gangsters' which even now is setting America's foreign and domestic policy."

So while YOU intended your remark to be facetious --- it actually should be directed to the JBS because it is THEY who believe that our attention should be focused on those "57 card-carrying members" of the "conspiracy of gangsters which even now is setting America's foreign and domestic policy" !!

Posted by ernie1241 on 05/03/2013 at 8:08 AM

Re: “Will two too many Kochs spoil the Tribune?

@Ronald MCFirbank:

It is significant that you choose to totally evade what I presented and, instead, continuously present straw man arguments. Nobody cares about the Trilateral Commission -- or whatever other boogeymen you want to rant about.

What people care about are Americans (particularly those who have staggering wealth, power, and influence) who believe that most of our political leaders and government officials are traitors or "agents" of an evil criminal "conspiracy of gangsters" determined to destroy our nation and bring us into a dictatorship.

Americans also wonder why any rational being in the 21st century would claim that our civil rights movement was created by Communists, run by Communists, and served "only Communist purposes". Is that the type of mentality we want to have influence and power in our nation?

So the question remains: what does Charles Koch believe? Does he still accept the basic predicates of JBS ideology?

Significantly, virtually the entire conservative movement in our country has rejected the JBS as extremist, irrational, and irresponsible. It would be interesting to know whether or not the Koch brothers associate themselves with genuine conservatism, OR, with an extremist fringe group that has lost libel lawsuits because of its malicious falsehoods about various people. Now---do you have anything relevant to say about that or is it your position that you don't have any moral compass -- so you don't care whether or not an organization lost an historic precedent-setting libel lawsuit which changed American libel law?

Posted by ernie1241 on 05/03/2013 at 6:43 AM

Re: “Will two too many Kochs spoil the Tribune?

Ronald, in reply to your sarcastic comment:

1. Nobody is in any sort of panic -- that's just your cheap shot to avoid focusing upon the real significance of what I wrote.

2. The Koch brothers have an enormous fortune as you know. It is always important to understand the underlying ideology which drives someone's sense of reality and what ideas they would like to become predominant in our country --- especially when they have virtually unlimited resources to bring their ideas to fruition in various ways.

3. If you read all the hundreds of thousands of words written about Charles Koch, you will not find any report that he was once a JBS member. In fact, nobody even knows how long he was a member. Nobody knows how much money he contributed to the JBS -- or, for that matter, how much he might STILL be contributing.

4. The JBS is not just some ordinary run-of-the-mill right wing interest group. It has a poisonous ideology which does not recognize ANY decent, moral, intelligent, principled, and pro-American alternative competing point of view to its own political preferences.

Instead, one of the core principles of the JBS is that virtually every one of our national leaders since the early 20th century has been a traitor and there is a vast conspiracy of "Insiders" [previously described as Communists and Communist sympathizers] who are working very hard to destroy our Constitution and our way of life and bring us into a one-world socialist dictatorship.

6. For example, here is what JBS founder Robert Welch told the first meeting of his National Council:

"Today, gentlemen, I can assure you, without the slightest doubt in my own mind that the takeover at the top is, for all practical purposes, virtually complete. Whether you like it or not, or whether you believe it or not, our Federal Government is already, literally in the hands of the Communists."

"In our two states with the largest population, New York and California...already the two present Governors are almost certainly actual Communists...Our Congress now contains a number of men like Adam Clayton Powell of New York and Charles Porter of Oregon, who are certainly actual Communists, and plenty more who are sympathetic to Communist purposes for either ideological or opportunistic reasons." [Note: the reference to Governors refers to Edmund G. Brown of California and Nelson Rockefeller of New York.]

"In the Senate, there are men like Stephen Young of Ohio, and Wayne Morse of Oregon, McNamara of Michigan, and Clifford Case of New Jersey and Hubert Humphrey of Minnesota and Estes Kefauver of Tennessee and John F. Kennedy of Massachusetts, whom it is utter folly to think of as just liberals. Every one of those men is either an actual Communist or so completely a Communist sympathizer or agent that it makes no practical difference..."

“Our Supreme Court, dominated by Earl Warren and Felix Frankfurter and Hugo Black, is so visibly pro-Communist that no argument is even needed…And our federal courts below that level…are in many cases just as bad.”

"Our State Department is loaded with Communists from top to bottom, to the extent that our roll call of Ambassadors almost sounds like a list somebody has put together to start a Communist front." ...

"It is estimated from many reliable sources that from 70% to 90% of the responsible personnel in the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare are Communists. Our Central Intelligence Agency under Allen Dulles is nothing more or less than an agency to promote Communism throughout the world...Almost all the other Departments are loaded with Communists and Communist sympathizers. And this generalization most specifically does include our whole Defense Department."

7. Don't you have a modicum of curiosity to find out if Charles Koch still believes this core JBS ideology?

1 like, 2 dislikes
Posted by ernie1241 on 05/02/2013 at 10:03 AM

Re: “Will two too many Kochs spoil the Tribune?

Michael Miner suggested that I post the following info here for interested parties:

1. Fred Koch was one of the founding members of the John Birch Society and he served on its National Council (which, on paper, was the governing body of the JBS but, in reality, it was powerless).

HOWEVER, like many other people who joined the JBS (such as Phyllis Schlafly), Fred ultimately resigned from the Society because (according to his wife), Fred believed that JBS founder Robert Welch was "too extreme" -- and because he thought Welch was wrong in his adverse evaluations of many prominent conservative politicians.

2. Fred's son, Charles Koch, was also a JBS member but he resigned in May 1968.

One historian who has done research into the private papers of JBS National Council member William Grede claims that he found documentation there which indicates that Charles Koch resigned from the JBS at the request of Robert Welch because Charles and Robert Love (a JBS National Council member from Wichita KS) had placed a full-page ad in the Wichita KS Eagle newspaper entitled "Let's Get Out of Vietnam Now".

At that time, the JBS had obtained almost a million signatures on a Vietnam petition advocating a win-the-war policy and withholding all aid to Communist countries -- so Robert Welch apparently thought Koch and Love had undermined the JBS position.

3. It would be interesting if someone could get Charles to answer questions re: whether or not he still accepts the basic predicates of JBS ideology -- namely, that most of our national leaders, government officials, and politicians during the past 8 decades have been Communist traitors, Communist sympathizers, or Communist agents?

For example:

Does Charles agree with the JBS position that Presidents Carter and Clinton should have been impeached for TREASON?

Or, for that matter, does Charles agree with this comment from the May 2008 JBS Bulletin in an article entitled "The New World Order Isn't New".

"Just as the John Birch Society showed in the 1960's that the communists basically ran both the civil rights movement and the KKK, the strategy was nothing new. The former was used to transfer power to Washington DC in the name of civil rights and the latter provided a pretext for transferring power to Washington. You cannot get a really good conflict started unless
you control both sides of the argument.”

More info re: JBS in my 204-page JBS Report here:…

Questions or comments:

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Posted by ernie1241 on 05/01/2013 at 5:08 PM

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